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detumescence really works.

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  chubbfrank on Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:42 pm

Keanoseg wrote:
So try to get a big strong pinch caliper reading above your temples, on the top, on the sides of the top, on the vertex etc. Your entire scalp. Your scalp skin everywhere needs to be MAXIMUM of (4 mm~10 mm). EVERYWHERE.



Quoted for importance. This is what I (and complex and pretty much everyone else) have been saying - although keanosog does a better job explaining. This is also why I think drexx has not come back; he never focused on the entire scalp and never had the results he planned.

Are you guys able to pinch the top of your scalp with ease? No? Then you're not finished with dt. Thin out everything, especially the mid-top regions since they are the worst areas.

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  Keanoseg on Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:58 pm

chubbafrank - could be. What I also found interesting from the study is that it presents a direct relationship with this "grease" and androgens and amount of hair loss. If you look at the females from the 2 tables, they always have less % of loss of course, although they don't necessarily have less deviation in hair thickness and strength throughout the scalp (typical female hair thinning). This grease and volume, whatever it is in it's absolute structure (combo of too much sebum, fibrosis, arteriosclerosis in the capillaries, calcification, all sorts of fluids, gases and solids, bacterias in response to inflammation...etc) is in a direct relationship with how much the DHT is going to be present and wreck havoc. All of this no doubt plays a big role in impairing the normal blood and lymph flow, also influences enlargement of sebaceous glands. This shouldn't be ignored because the anegdotal, factual evidence and personal experience from all of us in fact tells us that the skin does change structure during mpb and other types of alopecia. Figuring out the rest is the story of chicken vs egg.

Also what you said is absolutely true. The study clearly demonstrates that having thicker skin in one scalp region WILL influence the density and strength of hair in another region and will influence further miniaturization.

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  Billa on Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:04 pm

Amin80 wrote:I don't know how something so simple is working but it's working guys. Been doing it for 2 months now. Not using anything like fin or Minox. I am a diffuse thinner, anyway my current hair is thickening up, and little tiny hairs that I have never been able to get them to be thicker, are finally starting to grow and get thicker.

I really don't know why this is working, but amazingly enough it is.

hey mate, when you started to experience hairloss and did you try anything to help your hairloss before you start doing DT.

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  urbuddyhere on Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:36 pm

Is there any video online showing how to do the detumescence. If yes, pls post the link here for help. Thanku in advance

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  johndoe1225 on Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:46 am

urbuddyhere wrote:Is there any video online showing how to do the detumescence. If yes, pls post the link here for help. Thanku in advance

Hey

Not sure if you're still interested but serach "Reborn Hair PPP" channel on YouTube, he has 3 (or 2 maybe, one got reported for God knows why)

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  Changexpert on Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:21 am

I've done massage for 5 straight months. During that time, my scalp became more elastic and softer, but shedding never stopped. After stopping massage completely shedding lessened gradually. This post means absolutely nothing without any pictures.
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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  MikeGore on Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:30 am

What does detumescence mean again? Is that simply massaging right. Why the fancy words. Makes it sounds more special for no reason.

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  johndoe1225 on Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:33 am

MikeGore wrote:What does detumescence mean again? Is that simply massaging right. Why the fancy words. Makes it sounds more special for no reason.

Basically "relieving tension"

I realized that I can't hardly pinch at all with one hand on the top (between crown and vertex) without bending over at the waist (this makes everything SUPER loose and easy to work with).  This is hard work. I'm trying not to use my nails for one handed pinches, but on places other than my temples (which were impossible at the start of DT), it's either really hard due to finger slipping or I need to use my nails to grip the skin.

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  bov51 on Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:16 am

Changexpert wrote:I've done massage for 5 straight months. During that time, my scalp became more elastic and softer, but shedding never stopped. After stopping massage completely shedding lessened gradually. This post means absolutely nothing without any pictures.

Its been a year now, wheres the op now? disappear and will never post here again, same ol bs.

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  Changexpert on Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:22 am

lol I did not even check the start date of this thread. If DT truly works, please share some pics. I have done it 40 minutes per day (20 min each time for day and night) religiously for 5 months, which ended up in MORE HAIR LOSS. DT may be beneficial for regions that are completely bare, but if you have any hairs, be ready to lose them as you are "decalcifying" your scalp.
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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  bov51 on Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:28 am

Changexpert wrote:lol I did not even check the start date of this thread. If DT truly works, please share some pics. I have done it 40 minutes per day (20 min each time for day and night) religiously for 5 months, which ended up in MORE HAIR LOSS. DT may be beneficial for regions that are completely bare, but if you have any hairs, be ready to lose them as you are "decalcifying" your scalp.

I've done dt for 1.3 years, take it from me, it doesn't work.

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  SonofOdin on Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:34 pm

I think this whole idea of dealing in absolutes with every possible hair loss solution is holding some of us back. Most people who have had success in halting, or regrowing their hair did so through a regimen. They didn't isolate one supplement, or one technique, and toss all their eggs in that one basket and then when it goes wrong claim it to be useless. Hitting this hair loss issue from different angles is going to be key because if this wasn't a complicated problem we'd have the cure by now.

As for the case of DT my theory is all it is doing is restimulating follicles. But the hair died for a reason. You could keep introducing more and more sheep to a pack of wolves but the same thing is going to happen. That follicle is going to immediately get scavenged, until the root cause of your hair loss has been dealt with.
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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  sizzlinghairs on Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:08 am

I just think there's a large variation in what exactly each individual's scalp needs related to technique. I think there's the fundamentals, but then everyone has to find that essential variation to make the technique work for them. I think that's the tricky part. It's far from black and white and think people get caught up in that. "I've been doing 20 x twice a day and nothing".

Everyone's scalp is different so I think everyone needs to recognize the core fundamentals of the massage but not get so locked in to a black and white view of how to do it.

I think this is what makes DT so elusive for some

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  MovieJunkie89 on Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:31 am

I don't believe anyone who says they've done this for over a year and it has done absolutely nothing for them. I'm convinced some people dislike a method for whatever reason and then go on a mission to try and discourage everyone else from doing it.

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  johndoe1225 on Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:42 am

sizzlinghairs wrote:I just think there's a large variation in what exactly each individual's scalp needs related to technique. I think there's the fundamentals, but then everyone has to find that essential variation to make the technique work for them. I think that's the tricky part. It's far from black and white and think people get caught up in that. "I've been doing 20 x twice a day and nothing".

Everyone's scalp is different so I think everyone needs to recognize the core fundamentals of the massage but not get so locked in to a black and white view of how to do it.

I think this is what makes DT so elusive for some

Agreed

Remember, in the study, they used professional massage therapists (I assume so anyway Very Happy )

Say what you will about the study but without a professional, it will take some experimentation

Also, this should probably go in the DT volunteers thread, but has anyone tried doing DT while bent over at the waist with assistance from gravity? The difference between standing and bent over in the scalp is insane

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  Ho Chi Minh on Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:05 am

DT study say you should flatten dome head out with massage but instead i do gymnast forward roll on hard floor. concrete is always better for this coz i get full weight of body on head when it goes on floor. i do roll with no hands.... i might make video to show you dudes how i do this. only prolem is my skull start to deform like frankenstein monster head... becomed too flat on top if you dudes understand. all hair comes back you guys. i woud post photo but sorry i have no camera not even on cell phone. but def works dudes! anyone who say it dont work? they works for government,, big pharma or illuminati. they lie!!

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  bayman on Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:00 pm

johndoe1225 wrote:
urbuddyhere wrote:Is there any video online showing how to do the detumescence. If yes, pls post the link here for help. Thanku in advance

Hey

Not sure if you're still interested but serach "Reborn Hair PPP" channel on YouTube, he has 3 (or 2 maybe, one got reported for God knows why)

How many minutes per day? How many days per week?

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  Hole on Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:13 pm

SonofOdin wrote:I think this whole idea of dealing in absolutes with every possible hair loss solution is holding some of us back. Most people who have had success in halting, or regrowing their hair did so through a regimen. They didn't isolate one supplement, or one technique, and toss all their eggs in that one basket and then when it goes wrong claim it to be useless. Hitting this hair loss issue from different angles is going to be key because if this wasn't a complicated problem we'd have the cure by now.

As for the case of DT my theory is all it is doing is restimulating follicles. But the hair died for a reason. You could keep introducing more and more sheep to a pack of wolves but the same thing is going to happen. That follicle is going to immediately get scavenged, until the root cause of your hair loss has been dealt with.

THIS!

And:

A common problem I've seen in this forum and in all hair-loss forums in general. People get on the hype for a new technique, they jump on it, they overdo, altere protocols, add other things, lack commitment... and when they reach the supposed time frame and nothing happens then they blame the technique to not be working.

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  johndoe1225 on Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:07 pm

bayman wrote:
johndoe1225 wrote:
urbuddyhere wrote:Is there any video online showing how to do the detumescence. If yes, pls post the link here for help. Thanku in advance

Hey

Not sure if you're still interested but serach "Reborn Hair PPP" channel on YouTube, he has 3 (or 2 maybe, one got reported for God knows why)

How many minutes per day? How many days per week?

20 minutes twice a day, probably 7 days a week but I'm not sure, but this means nothing, you have to find what works best for you

I'm switching to only doing laxity exercises (DT Lite) on the weekends, and full DT during the week

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  RAptor on Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:49 am

maybe it works for some people, definitely not for everyone. No reliable evidence of DT working was ever posted tho.
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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  Hole on Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:16 pm

RAptor wrote:maybe it works for some people, definitely not for everyone. No reliable evidence of DT working was ever posted tho.

By itself, definitely not.

What I, and many others have said, is that DT works to some extent (most probably is exponential, the longer you do the better) but it is really slow.

Now, this has more to do with the growing cycles of hair (anagen, catagen, telogen phases), which people in forums often forget or doesn't (want) understand. This cycles also explain why any drug for hairloss (finas) requires min. 6 months to see any result, being it a reduction of hair loss and thickening of existing hair, and above 1 year to see any real regrowth if any. A combo with other drugs (minox) may reduce this timeframe, but I always found the hairs chemically generated to have a different texture and nature than my original hair.

What I have reported from DT is that I got vellus first in areas where there is recession but still existing hair. That this vellus tends to grow larger and at some point shed. 2-3 months later these vellus seems to be growing again thicker and larger. I do need longer time to see where does this go.

Infants also lose all the hair they had at birth within the initial 6 months of their life. New hair growth can be expected around 9-12 months of age. This hair is often very fine. Typically it will straighten out and get darker by age 2-3.

If this is the time-frame needed by humans to grow hair naturally, why people keep expecting radical changes in 5 months? No natural methods will provide you that. Use drugs, get a hair transplant. Maybe get your hair faster but die sooner later. Who knows?

*As a side note: I started to follow the dietary recommendations from Ray Peat, but they don't work for me. As it happens I am apparently allergic or sensitive to milk and dairy. I've been now out of dairy for a month and my acne is finally improving. I discovered this by taking non isolated whey protein. I broke out very bad and also got a lot of itchiness in my scalp. I am now following a low-medium carb paleo diet, with organics vegetables, fish and meat. No gluten either.

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  johndoe1225 on Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:20 am

Hole wrote:
RAptor wrote:maybe it works for some people, definitely not for everyone. No reliable evidence of DT working was ever posted tho.

By itself, definitely not.

What I, and many others have said, is that DT works to some extent (most probably is exponential, the longer you do the better) but it is really slow.

Now, this has more to do with the growing cycles of hair (anagen, catagen, telogen phases), which people in forums often forget or doesn't (want) understand. This cycles also explain why any drug for hairloss (finas) requires min. 6 months to see any result, being it a reduction of hair loss and thickening of existing hair, and above 1 year to see any real regrowth if any. A combo with other drugs (minox) may reduce this timeframe, but I always found the hairs chemically generated to have a different texture and nature than my original hair.

What I have reported from DT is that I got vellus first in areas where there is recession but still existing hair. That this vellus tends to grow larger and at some point shed. 2-3 months later these vellus seems to be growing again thicker and larger. I do need longer time to see where does this go.

Infants also lose all the hair they had at birth within the initial 6 months of their life. New hair growth can be expected around 9-12 months of age. This hair is often very fine. Typically it will straighten out and get darker by age 2-3.

If this is the time-frame needed by humans to grow hair naturally, why people keep expecting radical changes in 5 months? No natural methods will provide you that. Use drugs, get a hair transplant. Maybe get your hair faster but die sooner later. Who knows?

*As a side note: I started to follow the dietary recommendations from Ray Peat, but they don't work for me. As it happens I am apparently allergic or sensitive to milk and dairy. I've been now out of dairy for a month and my acne is finally improving. I discovered this by taking non isolated whey protein. I broke out very bad and also got a lot of itchiness in my scalp. I am now following a low-medium carb paleo diet, with organics vegetables, fish and meat. No gluten either.

Right, the results take a lot of work

I think the main worry is that people are somehow damaging the hair follicle though, which is what I am worried about constantly but I continue, it's basically massage, so it's fine.

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  Hole on Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:53 am

johndoe1225 wrote:I think the main worry is that people are somehow damaging the hair follicle though, which is what I am worried about constantly but I continue, it's basically massage, so it's fine.

How are you going to damage the hair follicle? DT is a superficial massage, it creates very mild acute inflammation. It's possible to break/cut the hair shaft if you create enough friction (probably brushing can create more friction), but that's it. You are not going so deep as to disturb the root of your follicle. You don't even damage the hair follicle using a derma-roller.

Many people is scare of scarring alopecia, but that's a very particular and rare case of alopecia and, in any case, non-scarring forms of hair loss, like mpb, do not turn into scarring forms of hair loss. Others are scare about traction alopecia, but this kind of alopecia requires a constant pulling force being applied to the hair, like ponytails, braids or super tight helmets.

From my personal observation, I didn't manage to get more flexibility in the middle upper part of the head till I started to be a bit more aggressive with the pinching and massaging. I also feel more relaxed when I massage the sides, behind the ears and the neck. In general I don't think there is a unique way to do this, just to be constant and understand how much is enough for you.





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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  johndoe1225 on Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:01 am

Hole wrote:
johndoe1225 wrote:I think the main worry is that people are somehow damaging the hair follicle though, which is what I am worried about constantly but I continue, it's basically massage, so it's fine.

How are you going to damage the hair follicle? DT is a superficial massage, it creates very mild acute inflammation. It's possible to break/cut the hair shaft if you create enough friction (probably brushing can create more friction), but that's it. You are not going so deep as to disturb the root of your follicle. You don't even damage the hair follicle using a derma-roller.

Many people is scare of scarring alopecia, but that's a very particular and rare case of alopecia and, in any case, non-scarring forms of hair loss, like mpb, do not turn into scarring forms of hair loss. Others are scare about traction alopecia, but this kind of alopecia requires a constant pulling force being applied to the hair, like ponytails, braids or super tight helmets.

From my personal observation, I didn't manage to get more flexibility in the middle upper part of the head till I started to be a bit more aggressive with the pinching and massaging. I also feel more relaxed when I massage the sides, behind the ears and the neck. In general I don't think there is a unique way to do this, just to be constant and understand how much is enough for you.





Yes I was agreeing with you, that seems to be the main worry about DT, the time input is really negligible, you can do it while doing anything, just watching TV or whatever

Even the loudest opponents of DT admit their scalp is healthier

By the way Hole, have you refined your DT technique at all?  I think I've settled on what feels best for me so far, mostly the 2 handed pinch

Also, I agree the top/middle part is a mother to loosen up, I haven't focused on that as much as I should have.  I palm my scalp throughout the day with one hand and scrunch it up to keep it nice and loose

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Re: detumescence really works.

Post  RAptor on Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:38 am

Amin80 wrote:Been doing it for 2 months now. Not using anything like fin or Minox. I am a diffuse thinner, anyway my current hair is thickening up, and little tiny hairs that I have never been able to get them to be thicker, are finally starting to grow and get thicker.

Regrowth in two months? come on....
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