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What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  Growdamnit on Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:17 pm

iuyy,

You might've gone over this before, but what do you think about all of CS's supplements? In your logic, which ones are the most promising, and are there any that you see as pure rubbish? Thanks.

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:38 pm

Yes, I used to.

but taking everything is not realistic.

I have refined what I use considerably.

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:40 pm

Growdamnit wrote:iuyy,

You might've gone over this before, but what do you think about all of CS's supplements? In your logic, which ones are the most promising, and are there any that you see as pure rubbish? Thanks.

it is impossible to say

because everyone has a different reason for losing hair

not everything can work for everyone, it will work for some and not others.

ideally, there would be 3 or 4 regimens listed, because each person is unique, and the solution can only be experimentation.
you may need a bit of everything from a few different regimens, to cover all your bases.



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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  Gates on Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:01 pm

iuyyighghghgkh wrote:
it is impossible to say

because everyone has a different reason for losing hair

This is total nonsense.

Everyone has a different reason for losing hair? Please give me a basis for this claim, which would implicate millions of different reasons for hair loss. Hell, if we started making claims that all diseases had a totally unique cause in every individual, there wouldn't be a cure for a single ailment out there.

So if one has fungal hair loss, anti-fungals are able to kill the fungus. You don't hear people proclaiming that fungal hair loss has a unique cause in every individual.

About the only disease whose pathology we can say this about at this point is cancer, basically because we don't have a fundamental cellular/genetic understanding of its root causes. But what you're saying is pure bologna.

iuyyighghghgkh wrote:
not everything can work for everyone, it will work for some and not others.

And the claim that some things are working while others aren't. Again, what basis are you making this claim upon? Show me an instance where one individual has solved the problem of MPB here, where something has "worked for them". It hasn't happened.

iuyyighghghgkh wrote:
ideally, there would be 3 or 4 regimens listed, because each person is unique, and the solution can only be experimentation.
you may need a bit of everything from a few different regimens, to cover all your bases.

This last part literally doesn't make any sense. 3 or 4 regimens listed? Because we haven't found one that works, and you are saying there are 3 or 4 which should? Howabout ideally there just be one that works...I think we'd all be satisfied if we could even have witnessed one thing work for one person. If we haven't found a single one, how can you even talk about a solution as if its been had, let alone that there are 3 or 4 in all likelihood? But you don't stop there, you are telling someone they may need some from each of these 3 or 4 mystery regimens to "cover all your bases". What could "having your bases covered" possibly mean?

I swear to God I think there must be spoof accounts at this forum just to keep hype up over some new topical, to keep everyone interested in the next rabbit hole.

What does this all sound like a recipe for? We have a group of people here legitimately looking for help. And yet are constantly being pulled around by illogical strings by people telling them to abandon all logic and good reason. And despite the fact there isn't a shred of evidence one thing here has ever truly worked for anyone, that there are many "solutions" and you just have to find the right one for you. Just find the right cocktail of components from all these "solutions", because the problem is unique to every individual. I have to think either people are making spoof accounts to sort of stir the pot and keep people interested here (social engineering), or you are trying to delude yourself. Either way, it gets on my nerves because your language is enough to get a bunch of other people to take the bait on some absolute bullshit. Solban isn't going to regrow any hair folks. These things have been tried many times. Many times. You can run into a wall a thousand times, it doesn't mean you're going to pass through it on the 1001st.

Its a recipe to keep people around, like telling a kid there's a fifty dollar bill buried out in the backyard and watching him dig holes endlessly trying to find it when you know its not there. And when he has dug up most of the land area, and exasperated he comes to you saying 'I've dug for three weeks, where is the money?", and all you tell him is "Its out there somewhere, you just aren't digging in all the right places."

The cause of MPB is not different for every person whose dealing with it. Is there anyone who truly believes that? How could humans ever have a system of medicine or healing, if there were no patterns to disease/sickness? Or people giving any kind of health related advice AT ALL, if the solution was different for everybody? Think. Why does ibuprofen or acetaminophen combined with caffeine tend to work on so many people's headaches? Because the solution for a headache tends to be similar across the board...why...because of a similar process occurring in most headaches. Not to say that MPB is anywhere near as simple of a situation, but at the level of the tissue, the end organs, the pathology is going to look basically the same from one MPB case to the next. If that weren't the case, what fucking point would there be in any hair loss research at all?

COGNITIVE DISSONANCE. We've got a guy - in the same thread no less - talking about how this or that WORKS, stated with total certainty. And then saying what works for one doesn't work for all. That the solution looks different for everyone. And all that atop the glaring fact that there isn't a scrap of bread on the table to show anything has ever worked for anyone. Its a sentiment I've seen expressed here so much (the solution is different for each of us), and yet everyone still chases the tails of everyone else to see what they're doing and how to go about it. And there's a regimen posted for everyone to be on. Huh? To me, it just seems like everyone intuitively understands there should be one solution (if there were one), but when it doesn't work, then we start seeing the circular logic pop up, "Well that's because hair loss is different for everyone." Well, how else could everyone get past the blatantly obvious staring-us-right-in-the-fucking-face fact that nothing has worked? No, without those little axioms there'd probably be a lot of people jumping ship I guess.

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  Growdamnit on Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:29 pm

Good post...fuck.

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  4039 on Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:42 pm

At least the OP has his heart in the right place. I view it as comic relief. Life is too short. lol

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:23 am

some people will always defy the laws of nature and never regrow a single hair no matter what they do

and I disagree with you.

No one really knows with certainty what causes hair loss, therefore experiment

finally, what are you actively doing to regrow hair now ? a shampoo, a diet, a supplement, blood tests ? what ? contribute or go away


Last edited by iuyyighghghgkh on Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:48 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:44 am

cayenne pepper topically : right idea, wrong execution. yes, improving bloodflow and waking up follicles works, but this won't work for most people.

hairloss-research.org (again): what on earth does this man "research" ? nothing by the looks of it. your average post on any hair loss forum has more thought put into it. shill site for life extension

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:14 am

lysine part 2 : may work via lowering serotonin, and interestingly, it depletes the body of nitric oxide, which is also good for hair. this is a must have hair supplement - however like everything, if it doesn't work for you, stop using it.

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  Gates on Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:24 am

A "must have" hair supplement?

You are becoming ridiculous.

This is like a string of bad infomercials contained to one sentence posts.

This thread should be deleted, and this type of content should be discouraged.

If you're going to do this and just spam a thread with how every supplement out there might possibly effect hair in a mouse study,
at least post the fucking studies you're referring to.

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:51 am

an infomercial for lysine ? since about 50 companies sell it, and it's all the same quality, I doubt it

What do you do for hair loss by the way ? diet, supplements, regimen ? answer this very simple question

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:02 am

Gates wrote:

You are becoming ridiculous.

.

At what point did you realise that ? the first few lines ? or was it a little bit later on ?

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  Gates on Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:13 am

Diet: very strict diet with very liberal scheduled cheat days; control for macronutrients and micronutrients; minimized wheat consumption and
       plan to eliminate all wheat within the remainder of 2015; zero hydrogenated oils except on cheat days (take out food).

Exercise: heavy resistance training, interval training, mobility work.

Shampoo: no need; a bald head only requires bar soap and a razor.

Supplement Regimen: strictly orthomolecular supplementation: vitamins, minerals. No plant chemicals except for  when a specific goal is desired,
                              and usually in the short term. No hair-loss specific supplementation.

I believe I've taken the best option a man can do in the face of fairly advanced hair loss: shave that shit off.

Of course, at first it was reactive, but I absolutely love it now. I prefer my head this way. The only way I could ever be persuaded to take anything for the purposes of hair regrowth would be if the results were almost certainly a pre-puberty head of hair. And that's only because I think a good crop of hair looks good, but I also think I look good bald too. Its the in-between that I don't like.

And I hope your baiting me to provide my "regimen" isn't meant as a means of discrediting me. The fact I'm not on everything-under-the-sink...well, there's a reason for that. But I'd imagine you're doing it to be able to now say, "Oh well you aren't even trying anything, so at least I'm trying." Apparently, the more in your regimen the more scout badges you have here. Fine, go ahead and try whatever you'd like, but this thread and the way you approach talking about these supplements and about "solutions" is obnoxious and misleading.

To answer your question about what point I realized this was ridiculous...the answer would be immediately. Why? We need go no further than the title. "What does work, and what doesn't work." Its plainly ridiculous that anybody would even presume to know how to compile this list, when NOTHING has worked. Ever. As far as I'm concerned, there isn't anything contained in the entire archive of threads at this forum that has treated MPB. Maintenance (which I say lightly) is not treating MPB. Its a subjective assessment of the rate of progression of MPB, but nobody has been able to stop, let alone, reverse MPB. So if your premise for "working" means treating MPB, you could have just included the entire forum under the category "what doesn't work". [Notice that I'm not talking about general health advice]

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  masterofnone on Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:30 am

Here's the problem with posts and threads like these:

The OP posts a long lists of claims with nothing to back them up. When you are going to make a controversial claim, you need evidence, whether it be testimonials buried in some thread, an expert's blog post, some journal article, personal experience, etc. If and when you have this evidence, you need to include it to substantiate your claim.

When you don't do this, the back and forth arguing between repliers and OP will never end because it is simply one opinion against another. That is not scientific or productive in any way, and shouldn't be what this community is about.

OP, if you reposted this with sources for each of your claims, both you and the community here could weed out ideas with good evidence vs. conjecture vs. personal experience.

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  Columbo on Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:43 am

I enjoy iuyyigh's contribution... as with any info posted on the internet (including those with a linked study, or a "reputable" resource or person) if you accept it blindly then that probably says more about you than iuyyigh.

Me personally, I take any info -- reputable sources or not -- with a pinch of salt, do my own research then make mind up. But even due diligence is no guarantee of anything. I mean you can pick a subject and likely find studies that are pro and studies that are con.

Be nice if it all could be reduced to hardcore science, but there are so many confounding variables and contexts. But yes, I agree science is the clear starting point.... but for something like this seems necessary to throw anecdotal evidence into the mix and self experimentation.

In the case of iuyyigh's specific recommendations, I've studied the science behind them, looked at anecdotal evidence and they seem like solid options worth trying. So, that am I. Peace xoxo


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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:08 am

I still disagree even baldness cannot be reversed.

If you took every supplement, like 100 a day, did every topical, including lasers, and were given access to the perfect diet, would you regrow hair ?

Yes.

And we have, in other posts that you will have to find, given links to the science. Do you think we just randomly pick a substance and use it grow hair with no backing behind it whatsoever ? Everything we try is backed up with science.

Also, this.
Regrowth of scalp hair on a 73-year-old man who has been bald since the age of 28.



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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  Growdamnit on Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:54 am

I think it is pretty upsetting that no one has reversed MPB and there isn't a cure for it. Dermaroller (along with a perfect diet) looks like it might be the best options thus far.

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:26 am

masterofnone wrote:

rubbish

complexity is the enemy of execution

people just want to know what to take, and why


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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  Gates on Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:24 pm

iuyyighghghgkh wrote:
complexity is the enemy of execution

First of all, I'd like to say I appreciate how cool of a head you keep. My posts have been pretty inflammatory and I don't rescind a word of it, but its impressive how you keep it together and don't just take it personally right away. I said my piece and I won't continue to bomb this with repeats.

But to this last quote of yours, I would agree this is true - in certain contexts - where a person is encouraging their own stasis by over-complicating something that shouldn't be complicated. For example (one which I see often), people will put off just starting a training regimen because they have to learn every minute detail about everything involving training and muscle tissue and nutrition; trying to find the perfect plan before they've ever started. The planning becomes the enemy of action. The axiom relates more (in my opinion) to people procrastinating by planning/thinking. It does not mean: complex things can always be reduced to simple terms, so ignore the complexity kid.

This doesn't apply in the reverse direction, meaning that we can't take something complicated and make it simple, just for the sake of saying we have an action plan. That's a good way to create hope and dash it while at the same time wasting time, money, and perhaps even making the situation worse.

The claim you made in your second to last post about perfecting diet and supplementation and adding in LLLT. You are saying that if you do these things that you WILL regorw your hair. You simply cannot say that. That is flagrantly overstepping.

There is zero evidence to show that anyone doing those very things has regrown their hair. You cannot genuinely be so sure of something without any evidence. What makes you think the answer is such a resounding yes? Is it hope speaking? Your intuition? Either way, its not fact and certainly not a probability, so treat it as such. Its one thing for you to have faith in what *you're* doing. Its another thing entirely for you to make tenuous claims to answer-seeking people with a tone of certainty.

If you do something, and it regrows your hair legitimately, take good care to document it (the regimen and the results) properly, and THEN you can come here and say what "works". Until then, we have to assume that nothing does.

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:04 am

so trying to turn this into a "health forum" just because you have given up trying to regrow hair

obviously they are connected, however, this is ultimately a hair loss forum


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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  Gates on Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:24 am

iuyyighghghgkh wrote:so trying to turn this into a "health forum" just because you have given up trying to regrow hair

obviously they are connected, however, this is ultimately a hair loss forum


"Giving up". This is just semantics. If you want to be more accurate you should consider it a resolution to not continue methods/behaviors that do not work, because said methods have been tried by many (and many times) for a reliable period of several years, and those methods have not produced a single piece of genuine evidence that they work. The principles upon which those methods are based, while seemingly promising at one time, have been shown to be ineffective within a "natural" format, meaning non-drug applications. Now, all that remains on that natural front are simply different variations of the same ideas/procedures using compounds with different names from different plants, encapsulated by different companies. Antioxidants, antibacterials, anti-fungals, vitamins & minerals, a low dose general anti-inflammatory, and/or fatty acids are not solving the problem of MPB.

They've been tried. So much so that if there were in fact any promise to these in a non-drug vehicle, we'd have seen something by now. Something. And yet nothing. Every new regimen or theory or protocol that appears is just a new OTC form of one of the things I just listed. But depsite acting on the same principles, people get excited because its got a new, novel sounding name, or its been combined with something else that's never worked (but dammit it gonna this time!).

So please don't refer to this as giving up. Refer to it as me having tried all of this while also educating myself to a much higher degree on the underlying science, so that I have a greater understanding of why I was doing it to begin with. That understanding has also shown me why none of that will work for MPB, ever.

Imagine a kid who you've watched continuously try to fly by jumping from atop of a large stone. Dozens and dozens of times you've watched as he fell on his ass, but got right back up and climbed the rock again, huffed and puffed and jumped again. Only to fall again. Why? Because he thinks maybe this try is all he needs, maybe he was doing something wrong before, or he had to get stronger. Eventually he gets frustrated and walks away. Some days later he opens up some physics books and starts learning about mass, and gravity, and force, and escape velocity. Suddenly he understands why he wasn't flying, only falling. What he ALSO grasps is that he can't just find something higher to jump from and have it work. He can't try from the top of the swing set. Getting more springy shoes won't change it. Having a trampoline isn't gonna change it. No, because you need technology.

Telling me I've given up is like telling that kid he "gave up". No, he didn't give up. His perspective changed. His view on the bigger picture widened, and it changed the way he saw his former attempts to achieve something. He'd be mentally handicapped at that point to continue trying things the old way.

Similarly, the problem of MPB is never going to be solved by a crude plant extract, or aspirin, or a vitamin/mineral. Only a modern (as of yet undiscovered) procedure or drug will reverse MPB. That's because MPB is not a condition that arises for "lack of something" in the diet, or "lack" of a particular plant chemical. Its a disease process operating at the most basic and smallest level of biological organization...the genes. And you aren't tinkering around in that by taking some pills with herbs or amino acids in them.

At the same time, my very practical choice to just shave it has given me a new perspective on this admittedly. Once its gone and you get used to a life where you aren't worried about it at all times, where your hair doesn't even enter your sphere of consciousness....yes, your ideas about its importance tend to change (inevitably). That said, I've admitted previously that I still believe a head full of lush hair looks better than a bald one, and yet that DOES NOT mean I think a bald head looks bad either. I happen to think I look pretty good bald. So to frame this as my having given up and now I sit pouting about having a shaven head....nuh uh. Rather the opposite. I prefer my head this way now, and pity myself for those years where I let it trouble me at all. Because I've realized all of the things I thought my loss was "causing" me, had nothing to do with my hair, just me. I'll say it one more time, if there were a drug that was released today which was safe and almost certain to grow a thick head of hair for life...sure I'd probably give it a go, because having a lot of hair can be nice. You've got the opportunity to sort of brand yourself and have more styles at your disposal. Its more of a youthful appearance to have a lot of hair, which can be attractive. But the maturity of a bald head can also be attractive, I promise. So it would really be less about hating my baldness and moreso about just liking how a good head of hair looks. As an example, I like how my arms look. If you offered me something that could make my arms a couple more inches in diameter, would I take it? Hell yes. But that doesn't mean I don't like them now.

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:41 am

just ...... longwinded nonsense and frustrations

yes, my post annoys people because they do take the fish oil, saw palmetto, green smoothie, raw chocolate, chinese herbs that are literally prison food, inedible toxic turnips and other things and get no results

that's probably why you are angry, let's be honest

and why have you not commented on the picture I posted of the man who regrew hair ? does this post not exist ?

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  Gates on Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:11 pm

Alright, figured it was about time. Here comes the "you're angry", "you're just hatin'" comments.

Speaks strongly for what you've got to stand on...nada.

Angry? Nah. Frustrated at stupidity.

You posted a picture. Show me the study. Let's take a look at the details. First of all, we aren't going to call what that man had a reversal of MPB to any extent that its useful to us. He grew some tufts of hair. Whatever process was occurring here was not a full reversal of MPB, and it certainly wasn't an elimination of the underlying condition that led there. He was on spiro.

It is hilarious that your whole defense against me has been to condemn finasteride and then you post a study on baldness reversal with an ANTI-ANDROGEN (spiro). What?

Is it interesting? Sure. But that's it. Let's look at the details in the study though. Let's see what was going on with him. What he was doing.

Want to make a bet? I almost guarantee you he wasn't taking all the supplements here that you say are working.

Imagine we were a cancer forum. You are in here spouting the same nonsense about what supplements "work" for cancer. Then you post a story about someone whose cancer went into remission. Boom! Look, it can be done! Sorry, not how it works man. You still need to show why what YOURE SAYING WORKS ACTUALLY DOES WORK. Post an article. Post a study. Post something to show where you get the idea that it "works". Post what its done for you. As far as I'm concerned about *anecdotal* evidence, you either post what its done for YOU or something convincing from SOMEONE ELSE. Don't come here and say something works and leave it at that. That's just ridiculous.

I could walk on here and say MYLANTA MIXED IN WARM MILK AND APPLESAUCE WORKS!

But, this is useless. I'm out.

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:33 pm

good.

we don't need people telling others to take cod liver oil and saw palmetto anymore on the forum

in fact, the first line in the older "what doesn't work " thread was  " this list will upset people"

and I have explained why lysine, taurine, glycine are helpful to the hair and the mechanism why. you must have missed it.

and I have explained lots of things I tried that didn't work, check my posts from a year ago, I was trying all kinds of crazy stuff

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

Post  Gates on Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:54 pm

I meant what I said about leaving. Really.

But don't set up a straw man that badly, man. Don't use something so cheap to try to write me off as some shill for bullshit.

I haven't ONCE told anyone to take any bullshit supplements. I think that's what you've been doing, and exactly the point I've been making.

You nagged me for my regimen. Take a look at it. See any worthless plant substances in there? Who is the one making claims about a supplement
working to regrow hair and yet can't show a single piece of evidence that they have grown a hair on your head?

I've been very honest. What about you? Providing a mechanism for a possibility doesn't mean something "works". You ought to learn to be
more precise, because from what I can tell, you're just loading your title w/ sensational language to draw attention to your posts.

And before I go, can we please acknowledge the study you posted. Yourself and those defending you have been dogging me about being rigid to the science.

You all keep saying things like studies are full of confounding variables and OP continues to bash the pharmaceutical solutions. And yet, the holy grail study you post - that is supposed to corroborate the supplements you list? -  is a guy on spiro! Is this a joke? For real. Please tell me your account is some kind of troll because that's absurd. You're falsely trashing me for supporting mainstream medicine (which I'm not even doing), and you post a study where the results you're touting are on a guy taking a pharmaceutical anti-androgen. Come on.

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Re: What doesn't work and does work - a rewrite

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