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the liver connection?

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Re: the liver connection?

Post  Delphine on Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:48 pm

4039 wrote:I'd keep researching and reading. Fishy body odor? lol Personally I would say half of the arguments against lecithin supplementation is political. The soybean especially being a controversial subject based on the sheer amount of subsidies it receives for production.

Although I will say that 3TBL daily of lecithin will make your skin all sticky. Just as 3TBL daily of hydrolyzed collagen makes your skin all slick and powdery soft.

At first I though the tackiness was due to the lecithin itself, but after around 6-8 month mark it ceased. My realization then became this byproduct was merely all the solidified lipid residue and gunk exiting through my pores. Another thing to note is that choline restores the electrical potential of cells and allows beneficial substances entrance and wastes to better exit.

Like I said, the most important thing to note (as for any potential sides, which are few) is offseting that 30% by volume phosphorous content with alkaline minerals.

I take alfalfa tablets, which are alkalizing, and the richest source of land-grown minerals. (And they are rich in choline!) I'll up my seaweed intake also.
How did you first get into upping your choline--what was your source for all this info?
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Re: the liver connection?

Post  Grateful on Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:22 pm

4039 - I found your views on using choline, glycine, betaine and taurine for liver health very interesting. You may remember in another post that I mentioned that I had some issues regarding my liver and gallstones. You didn't agree with some of the things I do to maintain my liver health but I'm always open to any suggestions that may improve liver health even more and I am always looking for the ultimate liver and gallbladder protocol. I particularly suspect that my liver doesn't break down fats efficiently and I don't tolerate the vitamins D and E well. I know that the supplements you mention definitely help the liver but do you mind outlining the protocol on how to use them on a daily basis, as well as any other suggestions. Also I would like to take dessicated liver but am afraid that as a male the iron content may be harmful - is this true? Looking forward to your response.

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Re: the liver connection?

Post  CausticSymmetry on Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:36 am

When fat soluble vitamins create problems there is usually insufficient bile. 

This is worth a spin to see if it helps resolve the problem.

http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Bile-Acid-Factors-90-Capsules/172

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Re: the liver connection?

Post  Grateful on Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:50 am

Thanks as always CS. Will give it a go.

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Re: the liver connection?

Post  4039 on Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:46 am

I too use ox bile on occasion. The Allergy Research Group's Ox Bile has the best value at 500mg a capsule. Probably wise to take it with a light meal to avoid any stomach discomfort.

For gallstones and/or a congested liver, there are many more options to get bile reflowing than most realize: copious amounts of choline, glycine, taurine, water also healthy fats, digestive enzymes, probiotics, apple cider vinegar tablets, fibrous vegetables and fruits, bitter foods, foods rich in malic acid and magnesium/potassium and calcium. Over a *gradual* period of months these cohesively all represent a cure.

A liver flush doesn't even represent a logic option, only imprudence. Sure it will get some bile flowing, but at the expense of potential organ brusing, severe inflammation and distention. And especially that distention will further compound problems by allowing bile to pool and stagnate, making one more susceptible to gallstone creation.

For instance, you have this sluggish gallbladder (which incidentally is a muscle) that for years hardly has any range of motion. Do you think suddenly applying a hellacious (and detrimental) amount of force, in the form of a liver flush, is a healthy idea?? A more relatable example would be an amateur who never exercises suddenly attempting to run a marathon or perform an advanced lifting routine. To both I say an emphatic NO!

See how silly it sounds when you use common sense examples and intuition, instead of all this fraudulent science that represents gallbladder removal and/or stents?

BTW, reversing gallstones is far easier than trying to reverse the distention of an organ. So I not only condemn doctor$ for ignorantly removing gallbladder$, which only creates an insufficiency, intolerance and dysbiosis, but holistic practitioners who recommend the barbaric liver flush.

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Re: the liver connection?

Post  Grateful on Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:36 am

Thanks for your response 4039. Some good suggestions to follow up.

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Re: the liver connection?

Post  Delphine on Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:21 pm


4039:
Many success stories about the liver flush at curezone...
http://www.curezone.org/forums/s2.asp?f=447&c=14&ob=v
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Re: the liver connection?

Post  4039 on Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:41 am

Delphine wrote:
4039:
Many success stories about the liver flush at curezone...
http://www.curezone.org/forums/s2.asp?f=447&c=14&ob=v

I (and many members here) have already established that curezone gives some very harmful advice.

If someone suffers from an *inactive* gallbladder packed with sludge and *jagged* calcified stones, the worst possible scenario would be creating enough force to smash and abrade them against sensitive tissue. Even if they accomplish the theoretically impossible: to get a large potentially jagged marble to travel through a teeny straw, it will still be at the expense of vital organ: inflammation, brusing, fibrosis, wall-thickening and distention.

vital organ inflammation, brusing, fibrosis, wall-thickening and distention. Distended enough to press against other vital organs thus limiting their function.

Otherwise I don't care how much magnesium you ingest in one sitting expecting enough dilation. All one manages to accomplish when internally mixing their own bile and sludge with lemon juice and 1/2 cup of oil is mostly to create green-colored soap. Which is a shame, when I have given information on how to gently emulsify those hardened and calcified lipids allowing them a smooth eventual exit.

But as I already stated, some people are their own worst enemy in looking for quick answers, when there rarely are any. And curezone is a boon to those types of people.

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Re: the liver connection?

Post  johndoe1225 on Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:32 am

I'd just like to add that I recently discovered that caffeine depletes Inositol, and I had mismeasured my caffeine consumption for a long time, turns out I was drinking more like 6-8 cups a day, and this is strong Italian coffee.

I straight up dropped all coffee just yesterday, and am having very noticeable withdrawal symptoms, but will definitely stick with it.

Will also be supplementing with Ino and Choline

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Re: the liver connection?

Post  4039 on Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:44 am

johndoe1225 wrote:I'd just like to add that I recently discovered that caffeine depletes Inositol, and I had mismeasured my caffeine consumption for a long time, turns out I was drinking more like 6-8 cups a day, and this is strong Italian coffee.

I straight up dropped all coffee just yesterday, and am having very noticeable withdrawal symptoms, but will definitely stick with it.

Will also be supplementing with Ino and Choline

The reason I specifically mention granulated lecithin is its profile rich in not just phosphatidylcholine, but also inositol and linoleic acid. Only with each of these ingredients present does the melting point of arterial plaque and cholesterol lower below body temperature. This is what gives lecithin its supreme emulsification properties.

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-premium-pure-lecithin-granules-non-gmo-16-oz-454-grams-granules

Each 6.5 gram serving contains:

Phosphatidylcholine 1.5 grams
Phosphatidylethanolamine 1.3 grams
Phosphatidyl Inositol 0.9 grams
Linoleic Acid 2 grams
Linolenic Acid 200 mg

I also think the bad press against coffee and caffeine is overstated. But yeah, 6-8 cups daily of strong coffee is a lot, for drip coffee that might even be the equivalent of 240-400mg per 8 ounces!

I consume a moderate amount of caffeine (300mg) during my workouts and its of great assistance. And I have no withdrawals either. Once you go beyond into overstimulation, then caffeine can be a net negative.

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Re: the liver connection?

Post  johndoe1225 on Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:34 am

4039 wrote:
johndoe1225 wrote:I'd just like to add that I recently discovered that caffeine depletes Inositol, and I had mismeasured my caffeine consumption for a long time, turns out I was drinking more like 6-8 cups a day, and this is strong Italian coffee.

I straight up dropped all coffee just yesterday, and am having very noticeable withdrawal symptoms, but will definitely stick with it.

Will also be supplementing with Ino and Choline

The reason I specifically mention granulated lecithin is its profile rich in not just phosphatidylcholine, but also inositol and linoleic acid. Only with each of these ingredients present does the melting point of arterial plaque and cholesterol lower below body temperature. This is what gives lecithin its supreme emulsification properties.

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-premium-pure-lecithin-granules-non-gmo-16-oz-454-grams-granules

Each 6.5 gram serving contains:

Phosphatidylcholine 1.5 grams
Phosphatidylethanolamine 1.3 grams
Phosphatidyl Inositol 0.9 grams
Linoleic Acid 2 grams
Linolenic Acid 200 mg

I also think the bad press against coffee and caffeine is overstated. But yeah, 6-8 cups daily of strong coffee is a lot, for drip coffee that might even be the equivalent of 240-400mg per 8 ounces!

I consume a moderate amount of caffeine (300mg) during my workouts and its of great assistance. And I have no withdrawals either. Once you go beyond into overstimulation, then caffeine can be a net negative.

Yep, it's a drip machine. I am swearing off that crap for good.

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Re: the liver connection?

Post  mistermr on Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:54 am

Calm down, coffee is not that bad

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Re: the liver connection?

Post  Delphine on Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:26 am

mistermr wrote:Calm down, coffee is not that bad

Not that good, either. But as they say: choose your poison. Here's Dr. Mark Hyman on coffee:
http://drhyman.com/blog/2012/09/19/is-coffee-bad-or-good-for-your-health-two-experts-debate/

Coffee is the magic elixir that keeps America humming. Before indoor plumbing was available and potable water was everywhere, Americans drank beer for breakfast and all through the day, resulting in a slow start to our nation’s prosperity.

Then the coffee bean was discovered in the 1800s. Caffeine and coffee replaced alcohol and beer and the industrial revolution was off to a great start. Perhaps it is no coincidence that the Internet boom and technology revolution started at the same time as Starbucks. It helped America focus!

It is certainly why I started on coffee during medical school. Everyone else was doing it, and it seemed a great way to help me cram for anatomy and biochemistry exams. But I quickly noticed a droop every afternoon: my brain shut down, my eyes became heavy and I could only “cure” it through another cup of coffee.

During my emergency room days I would power up with a quadruple espresso and work from 11:00 p.m. to 7:00 a.m. Just like a drug addict, I needed more and more just to stay barely functional. My sleep was difficult, more interrupted and less restful, and I woke tired and need my “fix” of java.

So I decided to “detox” and kick my drug habit. After a few days of headache and total exhaustion, I felt renewed energy, woke up alert and ready to embrace the day, and felt steady energy all day long. My sleep deepened, and the low-grade irritability and anxiety I felt disappeared. I realized I was living on borrowed energy.

The truth is that not everyone responds to caffeine the same way. Some metabolize coffee differently than others. Our detoxification pathways are genetically determined. That is why some people have one cup in the morning and can’t sleep for days and others can have a double espresso after dinner and hit the pillow and fall into deep sleep.

The gene involved is called CYP1A2. You can get a lab test to find out if you have trouble detoxifying. The good news is some may be better than others at tolerating caffeine and may be able to enjoy that coffee.

But there are many reasons for us to take a second look at our national coffee habit and obsession. Americans sleep about 1.5 hours less a night than 100 years ago, at great detriment to our cognitive function and health.

Coffee has a lot to do this with the wide-ranging health impact of sleep deprivation on our health, including heart disease, obesity, type 2 diabetes and cancer. To learn more about this link read, Lights Out, Sleep, Sugar and Survival.

There are some benefits of coffee. Coffee is the single biggest source of antioxidants in the American diet. Researchers claim it can prevent Parkinson’s and ward off Alzheimer’s, type 2 diabetes, and depression. It can help with focusing and reading and may make you more productive.

So why don’t we just put it in our water supply?

First, coffee is a drug. And using it recreationally is certainly fine, or for the occasional pick me up when you just couldn’t get enough sleep. But there is a dark side of coffee and caffeine.
It is addictive. It requires you to drink more and more to get the same “high” and eventually is needed just to feel “normal.” Headaches, exhaustion, and other biological signs of withdrawal put it clearly in the camp of addictive drugs.
It stimulates the release of dopamine, which helps us focus, pay attention, and remember. But it depletes those neurotransmitters over time and loses its effectiveness.
It stimulates the release of stress hormones including adrenalin and cortisol. This may lead to palpitations, anxiety, insomnia, and even spikes in blood sugar and insulin.
It increases homocysteine (increasing risk for heart disease, depression, cancer, and dementia) and depletes vitamins and causes mineral loss, including magnesium the relaxation mineral.
It causes urinary excretion of calcium and contributes to osteoporosis.
It can cause diarrhea, reflux and heartburn.
It may interact with common medications such as Tylenol, causing liver damage.
Coffee increases risk of stillbirths and iron deficiency in mothers and babies.

Occasional use of addictive legal drugs such as alcohol, sugar, or caffeine cause no harm, but regular, habitual use and addiction may cause significant risk. But more importantly, it has a negative effect on the quality of life for many who drink it — they sleep poorly and are more tired and irritable and anxious.

For something that is supposed to give you more energy, it usually offers only a brief lift with increasingly diminishing returns. The surprising thing many former coffee drinkers discover is that they have more energy, not less, when they finally kick the habit. Try a drug holiday — you might be surprised at the lift you get, much better than coffee.
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Re: the liver connection?

Post  4039 on Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:01 am

Seems like Dr. Mark Hyman has very strong opinions on something fairly innocuous like coffee, but a relatively weak (non-existent) one when concerning his colleague Dr. Steven Nissan aka the world's most dangerous cardiologist and big pharma shill. Most of the messages I post here regarding cholesterol lowering medications are in attempts to counter such high-powered influential idiots like Nissan, who btw, runs contrary to everything that Hyman states. Follow Nissan and you will surely have a dysfunctional liver and gallbladder.

In fact, I would love to see Mr. Hyman and Mr. Nissan debate inside of the Cleveland Clinic, but that will never be allowed to happen. Laughing

The bottom line is that the dosage makes the poison and there is a point of diminishing returns for every therapeutic product. That point is for each person to discover on their own as we are all unique. For me the dosage of diminishing returns for caffeine is anything above 300mg daily or the equivalent of 2 cups of 8oz coffee. And without that pre-workout caffeine my capacity at the gym does diminish.

Another drink that gets the liver moving and bile flowing is alcohol, obviously in moderation for the same reasons.

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Re: the liver connection?

Post  Delphine on Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:10 pm

Yes, we each have to determine what works for us, and some can tolerate coffee better than others.
However, it usually becomes more problematic as we get older, because it raises levels of the stress hormone cortisol, which is already higher
with age.   So we might as well quit while we're ahead!

Dr. Perricone on the issues with cortisol,  with the recommendation to avoid coffee completely (including decaf):

Excessive amounts of cortisol can destroy the immune system, shrink the brain and other vital organs, decrease muscle mass, and cause thinning of the skin which results in prominent blood vessels.  In the anti-aging field, cortisol is known as the death hormone because it is associated with old age and disease.  So, how can you keep your cortisol under control?

   Get good adequate sleep-six to eight hours of uninterrupted sleep every night.
   Minimize stress-whenever possible, avoid stress-inducing situations.
   Cut out coffee!  Coffee contains a number of organic acids that affect blood sugar and cortisol levels.  This is not due to the caffeine.  For example, you can drink a cup of decaffeinated coffee at 8am and your cortisol levels will still be measurable at 10pm-the same as if you had drunk regular coffee.

- See more at: http://www.dailyperricone.com/2010/03/cortisol-the-death-hormone/#sthash.8D8zBGKk.dpuf
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Re: the liver connection?

Post  4039 on Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:20 pm

At the risk of sounding redundant, this is the great equalizer for me, not only lowers inflammation and increases circulation but normalizes cortisol. I don't even fret much less about cortisol any longer.


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Re: the liver connection?

Post  Delphine on Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:49 am



Yes...I sleep grounded. Still feel I do best without coffee! Diff'rent strokes Smile
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Re: the liver connection?

Post  4039 on Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:16 am

You ground yourself, no wonder you are so calm and reasoned. I have probably consumed about 10 cups of coffee my entire life. Wink Though I do have a container of caffeine with a 120mg scooper. I personally prefer teas and don't mind the occasional coffee ice cream, which incidentally ice cream is packed with lecithin. Very Happy

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Re: the liver connection?

Post  Delphine on Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:59 pm

4039 wrote:You ground yourself, no wonder you are so calm and reasoned. I have probably consumed about 10 cups of coffee my entire life. Wink Though I do have a container of caffeine with a 120mg scooper. I personally prefer teas and don't mind the occasional coffee ice cream, which incidentally ice cream is packed with lecithin. Very Happy

Now I'm confoosed. You said you drank 2 cups of coffee pre-workout? You wrote:

For me the dosage of diminishing returns for caffeine is anything above 300mg daily or the equivalent of 2 cups of 8oz coffee. And without that pre-workout caffeine my capacity at the gym does diminish.
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Re: the liver connection?

Post  4039 on Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:39 pm

Caffeine isn't exclusive to just coffee. Smile I attempted a relatable comparison of pure daily caffeine (acceptable for me) based on a coffee cup equivalent. The reason for caffeine preworkout is simply based on its thermogenic effect and ability to increase the adrenal's output of catecholamine, which therefore increases fat oxidation, protein synthesis and inhibits muscle tissue breakdown. I actually take several different aminos for preworkout, including BCAAs etc. And yeah, if you are looking for a bitter taste to ramp up bile flow then a little coffee (and or caffeine) is a good idea.

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Re: the liver connection?

Post  Delphine on Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:39 am

Ah, you take caffeine as an isolate?  I see.  Well, in that case you would be avoiding the problems with coffee.  As i posted previously quoting
Dr. Perricone, the issues with coffee are not due to the caffeine, but the organic acids it contains which mess with blood sugar and hormones.  
Thus, there is no advantage in drinking decaf.
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Re: the liver connection?

Post  Beebrox on Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:14 am

Yeah, but not so black and white, please. Polyphenols and all the bitterness is what what coffee is about for many, of what we consider it healthy. I had oportunnity to take pure caffeine a while ago, and coffee feeling beats by far. Of course if you wish to be precise, as 4039 no doubt is Very Happy, you can mix manythings with it, since it can act like a distributor. I like cycling it. Drink it at weekends, and replace it with tea in workweeks.

That said, we will be probably be amazed on how reductionistic smart-asses we are right now, when time passes by and new research sets new perspectives.

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Re: the liver connection?

Post  4039 on Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:37 am

Beebrox wrote:Yeah, but not so black and white, please. Polyphenols and all the bitterness is what what coffee is about for many, of what we consider it healthy. I had oportunnity to take pure caffeine a while ago, and coffee feeling beats by far. Of course if you wish to be precise, as 4039 no doubt is Very Happy, you can mix manythings with it, since it can act like a distributor. I like cycling it. Drink it at weekends, and replace it with tea in workweeks.

That said, we will be probably be amazed on how reductionistic smart-asses we are right now, when time passes by and new research sets new perspectives.

Yeah, coffee is more satisfying that any one individual component. I've heard the same said for those who vaporize pure THC versus the real thing. Wink

I actually find older science way more compelling and groundbreaking that most of this new opportunistic stuff. Many of my posts are basic rehashes of long forgotten science with a little intuition added.

I especially try to avoid anyone treating science, including diet and nutrition, like a religion. The world already has enough dogma to spare. We will honestly always have more questions than answers and so much left to learn.

You definitely need to consume bitter things on occasion for optimal health, in general, to ignite all five taste sensations. And I find this latest alkaline-acid trend to be mostly misguided, as discussed in some of my previous posts. Coffee as a drink has been with us for over a thousand years for a reason, same with milk that has lately trended downward.

Yeah, I would rather prefer raw milk whenever possible. But - besides animal's milk, coconut and palm fruit - there are very few dietary sources of short-chain fatty acids that the brain requires and craves for fuel. Optimal brain health is reason alone for me to drink organic milk on occasion. Same with eggs for the amount of lecithin they provide.

Life is actually the grey in the middle of the two black and white extremes. Smile Moderation of diet and thought etc is the real key, imo.

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Re: the liver connection?

Post  NYJets on Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:55 am

4039 wrote:At the risk of sounding redundant, this is the great equalizer for me, not only lowers inflammation and increases circulation but normalizes cortisol. I don't even fret much less about cortisol any longer.


Very nice despite 8 people. What method of grounding are you using 4039? Link me if it spares you time. Thanks
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Re: the liver connection?

Post  4039 on Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:15 am

NYJets wrote: Very nice despite 8 people. What method of grounding are you using 4039? Link me if it spares you time. Thanks

I have a pretty minimal setup, a very long earthing rod [as far from measurable dirty energy as possible, which is admittedly tough in some urban areas] attached to a long copper wire with a protective resistor before it reaches my Soft&Safe bamboo silver threaded sheets which are Alibaba sourced. You can read more from previous threads in this forum, the details should still be relevant.

Long ago, I had it attached directly to my electrical outlet's ground tampered by a Greenwave EMI filter. Both methods produced inconsequential interference levels with fairly smooth waveforms. The increased circulation over time sleeping grounded even makes your flesh tingle, which is cool feeling. 8-)

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