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Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

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Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Pumbaa on Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:28 am

Hey guys,

I am eager to start Swiss Temple's protocol, but the sound of rubbing Lithium Chloride (as a WNT agonist) into dermastamp wounds seems a little scary. Can some of you more knowledgable members shed some light on the safety of Lithium Chloride? Swiss recommends using 10mg per temple after wounding. Is this dosage low enough to be safe? It seems Lithium Succinate and Lithium Gluconate have been used to treat seborrhoeic dermatitis and would be a safer alternative. What do you guys think? CS?

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Biffy on Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:53 am

Lithium isn't really that bad for your body it is essential mineral and actually has some therapeutic benefits. Anyways would not worry to much, the dosage is low and only once a week.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  The Hulk on Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:49 pm

I have some Lithium Orotate. Is this ok to use?

Thanks

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  AgapeBerry on Mon Nov 09, 2015 4:09 am

Renky wrote:I have some Lithium Orotate. Is this ok to use?

Thanks

No, they're different. It's possible it would provide similar benefits for all I know, but chloride is what's used in the studies supporting its use. There's usually a good reason for picking a particular form of a chemical.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  CausticSymmetry on Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:58 am

I think the best way to address this thread is to point out the advantages and negatives of that protocol.

First a bit of a preface here: Because I have been researching hair growth within the natural realm for over 20 years now, I have had the opportunity and the time to examine most things under the microscope figuratively and biochemically for a long time. 

So with that, sometimes there is novelty in an approach that seems unfamiliar. First things first, I introduced the concept of the topical lithium....Sometimes it has value, however for most people it's not worth the time or the trouble (except for severe seborrheic dermatitis). And even then, it is not meant to be a continual treatment (the underlying issue should be corrected).

The bottom line on that treatment though is even with catalysts (DMSO for example), the theory behind it working did not translate into the robust hair growth as it appeared on paper--as a result, I eventually removed it from my site. The hair organ system is enormously complex, and logically when one assembles a whole complex of items, it can muddy the over all question...what is working and what is not?

The main strength of his protocol is limited to two particular items in my opinion: The dermarolling/microneedling and castor oil is what he has going for him.  Is it really necessary to add in those others? There are natural ways to achieve it and as mentioned above, no need to include the lithium.  Also valproic acid depletes zinc and vitamin A (it's not a sustainable model for health). 

Fixing/identifying the hidden inflammation seems to be a better goal. Dampening the inflammation via a drug route leads to eventual destabilization of the effect. If it were me, would just stick to those 2 very basic topical ideas.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  AgapeBerry on Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:59 am

Hmm, thanks for the input CS. While I agree with you, if you're not getting an affect from just those two, and you do respond to the muddier mixing of chems/drugs while not subjectively feeling any negatives, I mean it seems like obviously you should go the muddier route, at least for now. Especially if you're on the verge of having noticeably less hair like myself.

Correcting the underlying causes should be everyone's priority, but it seems much more difficult to hone in on one's hairloss when youre goal is to reduce inflammation generally, which can be very far up the causal chain as opposed to whats most proximally causing your hair to fall out, much more difficult to control imo.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  CausticSymmetry on Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:16 pm

To clarify, and I think we are on the same page...try to mitigate the problem while working on resolving the core problem. My concern with the drug parts of it (Valproic acid in particular is that it works as long as there are sufficient zinc ions and also needs some vitamin A).

And all in all there are now more than ever so much to choose from these days.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  The Hulk on Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:50 pm

Caustic Symmetry wrote:The dermarolling/microneedling and castor oil is what he has going for him.

Has there been a consensus on the frequency of dermarolling? Once a week seems a bit much (and I have done this). I have now dropped back to once a month.

Thanks.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Pumbaa on Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:32 pm

Thanks for the replies

CS:

First things first, I introduced the concept of the topical lithium....Sometimes it has value, however for most people it's not worth the time or the trouble (except for severe seborrheic dermatitis). And even then, it is not meant to be a continual treatment (the underlying issue should be corrected).

Do you consider LiCl to be a safe topical to try if I'm using 10mg per temple, once every week (or possibly only once every two weeks)? Why do you say there is no need to include the lithium? As far as I understand, it is necessary as a WNT agonist after wounding. Do you not think the WNT signaling is necessary after wounding? Is there a better way to achieve this, in your opinion?

There are natural ways to achieve it

Would you mind discussing some of these natural ways to achieve goals in Swiss' protocol?

What are your thoughts on the whole theory of lowering PGD2 and increasing PGE2? Are there solid natural ways to do this locally in your scalp?

I'm all for going the natural route and solving underlying health issues in the big picture, but I am also very desperate to get some temple regrowth as I am taking care of my overall health. Swiss' results are very impressive and are the best I've ever seen in regards to temple growth.

Since you do agree with castor oil use, what are your thoughts on using it with DMSO to penetrate the scalp?

Thanks so much for your response.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Changexpert on Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:20 am

Thanks CS for your insight. This is exactly why I come here for more in-depth discussion. So many of us are blinded (including myself) due to hair loss and we are willing to try so many different protocols. Some of these protocols have anecdotal evidence and some even have research studies backing them up. The problem is supplemental route is never tested thoroughly because most of them cannot be patented, at least in the US. The studies often lack population size, are not randomized properly, select a wrong population pool (mixed gender, other health conditions not checked), and/or is not controlled properly (diet, lifestyle). Also, a lot of rat studies that are shown to grow hair fail when tried on human beings. I really wish there is a more structured organization that studies hair loss on human beings more carefully.

Also, in regards to CS's experience, 20 years of research experience is not easy to make. Most of us have 1-3 years of hair loss research experience while some people have more than 5 years on their belts. I am sure CS probably has probably seen/heard of different protocols (or variation of) that are becoming popular at one point in his time. One caveat is that supplemental industry keeps growing to release many new compounds in such a short period of time, so one has to keep studying what's on the market, which many of us on this forum seem to be doing.
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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  CausticSymmetry on Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:23 am

Pumbaa - Lithium Chloride (LiCl) is quite soluble say verses the other types of lithium often mentioned. However, for lithium to work (at least in theory), requires a catalyst. 

So when I used to use it (during a time when my scalp was relentlessly itchy and sebum rich), I used mostly insoluble forms (Lithium Orotate)

So the theory goes like this---but before I continue it really doesn't work much more than just cutting the sebum and reducing the itch--even worse, too frequent use will deprive the scalp of needed oil.

Not surprisingly, there is so much to hair growth....the various Wnts and/or Wnt pathway is incredibly complex, so dealing with it just from upregulating it alone usually misses the mark.  

DMSO boosts Wnt signaling and increases levels of beta-catenin.  

DMSO is a co-factor with Lithium Orotate, as Lithium downregulates glycogen synthase kinase-3beta (GSK-3b).  GSK-3b inhibits the activity of the Wnt pathway.  Lithium suppresses GSK-3b, allowing an increase in Wnt signaling via DSMO.  Moreover, GSK-3b upregulates the apoptoic protein Bcl-2, while Lithium reduces Bcl-2 and upregulates Bax, sparing cells and reducing sebum.

And there is this study on Lithium chloride:

Lrp5-independent activation of Wnt signaling by lithium chloride increases bone formation and bone mass in mice

As with many things that seemed to sound good on paper, the hair growth effect just wasn't there.

Ultimately though, androgen receptor activation inhibits Beta-catenin dependent transcription. So androgen sensitivity plays a strong role as it will prevent Beta-catenin to activate hair follicle growth. In my view there are a number of ways to normalize the redox status in the skin/hair which is key to preventing high androgen receptor sensitivity.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  CausticSymmetry on Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:34 am

Changexpert wrote:Thanks CS for your insight. This is exactly why I come here for more in-depth discussion. So many of us are blinded (including myself) due to hair loss and we are willing to try so many different protocols. Some of these protocols have anecdotal evidence and some even have research studies backing them up. The problem is supplemental route is never tested thoroughly because most of them cannot be patented, at least in the US.  The studies often lack population size, are not randomized properly, select a wrong population pool (mixed gender, other health conditions not checked), and/or is not controlled properly (diet, lifestyle). Also, a lot of rat studies that are shown to grow hair fail when tried on human beings. I really wish there is a more structured organization that studies hair loss on human beings more carefully.

Also, in regards to CS's experience, 20 years of research experience is not easy to make. Most of us have 1-3 years of hair loss research experience while some people have more than 5 years on their belts. I am sure CS probably has probably seen/heard of different protocols (or variation of) that are becoming popular at one point in his time. One caveat is that supplemental industry keeps growing to release many new compounds in such a short period of time, so one has to keep studying what's on the market, which many of us on this forum seem to be doing.

Yes, it is a bit unfortunate that the bulk of the research is based on mice. Usually they use the word "murine" in so many of these. 

I sure tried a lot of things with promise on these rats/mice/murine. 

Also what you said about the different routines....It's similar to a fashion show or a trend....There's some type of novelty to any approach, especially if it worked well on any particular person.

The cold hard truth just from empirical evidence is that some things work remarkably well on some people and even quickly, yet there are at least a few degrees of very difficult cases. Some of us will have an easier time if it is alopecia areata (AA) or especially Telogen effluvium, but the harder cases are a combination of AGA with AA,
or AGA with fibrosis or even worse AGA with folliculitis.

So from that observation, it is imperative to resolve the underlining issue, because even the very best assortment of regimens that address most targets involved in MPB will be missed without the main inflammation being stopped.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Pumbaa on Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:13 am

Thanks for the info, CS.

So you believe that micro needling on it's own is beneficial in slick bald areas? Or is there some topical that would coax the cells towards hair regeneration that could be applied directly after wounding?

Do you believe castor oil applied directly to the skin is beneficial? Or would it need to be mixed with a penetrant such as DMSO, ethanol, DMI, etc?

Have you seen temple loss reversed using only supplements? I feel like I've been lurking on hair-loss forums for years and have never seen a convincing example of temple regrowth, so when I saw Swiss' success I saw it as a final hope of sorts. I know it sounds silly but I'm desperate to cure this disease.

Aside from that, I just got an allergy panel and will be getting a heavy metal and complete stool test soon to get my overall health in check while I explore other possibilities for temple regrowth. I agree 100% that overall health should be a main focus.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  CausticSymmetry on Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:05 am

Pumbaa wrote:Thanks for the info, CS.

So you believe that micro needling on it's own is beneficial in slick bald areas? Or is there some topical that would coax the cells towards hair regeneration that could be applied directly after wounding?

Do you believe castor oil applied directly to the skin is beneficial? Or would it need to be mixed with a penetrant such as DMSO, ethanol, DMI, etc?

Have you seen temple loss reversed using only supplements? I feel like I've been lurking on hair-loss forums for years and have never seen a convincing example of temple regrowth, so when I saw Swiss' success I saw it as a final hope of sorts. I know it sounds silly but I'm desperate to cure this disease.

Aside from that, I just got an allergy panel and will be getting a heavy metal and complete stool test soon to get my overall health in check while I explore other possibilities for temple regrowth. I agree 100% that overall health should be a main focus.


Yes, microneedling plus a natural topical does have the ability to produce real results.

DMSO (diluted) does help with penetration with a good topical agent but has its own benefit too. In my particular case, I had multiple systems wrong and it took a really long time to get to very obvious results. I think part of the problem is that it is easy to get discouraged -- everyone wants very fast results, yet if there is a potent inflammatory component, it will take time.

In many topic threads in the past, a lot of the discussion was causation or various things that acted like gasoline to fuel the inflammation. If I were to generalize, healing the gut and addressing persistent toxins (heavy metals is an example) are enormous--because even the best approach will fall short against these problems.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Pumbaa on Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:22 am

Yes, microneedling plus a natural topical does have the ability to produce real results.

Which topical would you most recommend after wounding? I'm planning on starting a wounding protocol today.

DMSO (diluted) does help with penetration with a good topical agent but has its own benefit too.

What do you think a good mix of DMSO/castor would be? How much should the DMSO be diluted?

If I were to generalize, healing the gut and addressing persistent toxins (heavy metals is an example) are enormous--because even the best approach will fall short against these problems.

This makes sense to me on every level. I definitely need to focus on my gut health and get that sorted. Thanks for your continued responses and wisdom.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Changexpert on Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:33 am

CausticSymmetry wrote:Some of us will have an easier time if it is alopecia areata (AA) or especially Telogen effluvium, but the harder cases are a combination of AGA with AA,
or AGA with fibrosis or even worse AGA with folliculitis.
I definitely have AGA with AA as I am thinning not just the frontal/temporal and vertex, but also the sides and back. Some people might refer it as prolonged or even permanent telogen effluvium. What are the other two conditions that you brought up? How do we diagnose that?

In the case with AGA with AA or prolonged TE, do you have any suggestions that might be helpful besides eklonia cava? My body has allergic reactions to high dose iodine, and I've tried it numerous times to rule it out. I would appreciate your response.
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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  UzumakiNaruto on Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:34 pm

isnt this being used in car batteries? is it safe to use it for the hair?

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  CausticSymmetry on Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:19 am

UzumakiNaruto wrote:isnt this being used in car batteries? is it safe to use it for the hair?

It's a natural mineral (even infants need 1 mg for optimal brain functioning), but yes it is a reactive mineral), so depending on its form or use can be used for either.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  CausticSymmetry on Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:27 am

Pumbaa wrote:
Yes, microneedling plus a natural topical does have the ability to produce real results.

Which topical would you most recommend after wounding? I'm planning on starting a wounding protocol today.

DMSO (diluted) does help with penetration with a good topical agent but has its own benefit too.

What do you think a good mix of DMSO/castor would be? How much should the DMSO be diluted?

If I were to generalize, healing the gut and addressing persistent toxins (heavy metals is an example) are enormous--because even the best approach will fall short against these problems.

This makes sense to me on every level. I definitely need to focus on my gut health and get that sorted. Thanks for your continued responses and wisdom.

There's a lot of potential topicals out there.  I could probably list several dozens of them. Each have their own particular mechanisms. However, one that is quite well known, easy to obtain and is better than minoxidil is rosemary oil. And if you wanted to double up, would add castor oil also, because the mechanism is different. 

Would not use DMSO for these (you could, but not necessary), it is needed for insoluble items. It's better to get some sulfur internally anyway. DMSO is a solvent at 99% purity...for it to be safe, it has to be diluted down a lot. For these purposes, something like 10% is fine.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  CausticSymmetry on Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:48 am

Changexpert wrote:
CausticSymmetry wrote:Some of us will have an easier time if it is alopecia areata (AA) or especially Telogen effluvium, but the harder cases are a combination of AGA with AA,
or AGA with fibrosis or even worse AGA with folliculitis.
I definitely have AGA with AA as I am thinning not just the frontal/temporal and vertex, but also the sides and back. Some people might refer it as prolonged or even permanent telogen effluvium. What are the other two conditions that you brought up? How do we diagnose that?

In the case with AGA with AA or prolonged TE, do you have any suggestions that might be helpful besides eklonia cava? My body has allergic reactions to high dose iodine, and I've tried it numerous times to rule it out. I would appreciate your response.
The severe forms are frontal fibrosing alopecia, advanced androgenetic alopecia, scarring alopecia or in "doctorese" they call it cicatricial alopecia. There is also primary and secondary scarring type alopecia.

Depending on the type or situation, the treatment strategy changes.

The scarring variety results from deconstruction of pilosebaceous units which transform into scar tissue. 

Primary scarring alopecias affect the hair follicles. Secondary scarring alopecias affect the dermis and secondarily cause follicle destruction. 

It can be determined by a type of punch biopsy and a culture.

For example, the inflammation may involve lymphocytes or neutrophils. The types of hair loss that involve lymphocytic inflammation that can include discoid lupus erythematosus, lichen planopilaris, frontal fibrosing alopecia, central centrifugal alopecia, and Pseudopelade of Brocq. 

The scarring types of hair loss that are primarily from neutrophilic inflammation include folliculitis decalvans, tufted folliculitis, and dissecting cellulitis of the scalp. 

Another one is Folliculitis keloidalis is a type of scarring alopecia with a mixed inflammatory infiltrate.

Generally most of us do not have these very severe forms of hair loss...the most common feature of advanced AGA is some hint of insulin resistance or syndrome X metabolism.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Pumbaa on Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:05 am

There's a lot of potential topicals out there. I could probably list several dozens of them. Each have their own particular mechanisms. However, one that is quite well known, easy to obtain and is better than minoxidil is rosemary oil. And if you wanted to double up, would add castor oil also, because the mechanism is different.

CS, what do you think about making a sticky of all potential topicals? Might be nice to have all that info organized in one place. I'd be happy to help gather the studies and type up/format the post if that helps. I'd just need a list of the potential topicals you think are worth exploring.

Would not use DMSO for these (you could, but not necessary), it is needed for insoluble items. It's better to get some sulfur internally anyway. DMSO is a solvent at 99% purity...for it to be safe, it has to be diluted down a lot. For these purposes, something like 10% is fine.

I've tried applying castor oil and it just kinda sits on my head until I wash it off. Doesn't really feel like it's absorbing much, which is why I think the DMSO will help. What do you think about 10% DMSO, 90% castor oil with a few drops of rosemary? I think that's what I'm going to whip up tonight.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  CausticSymmetry on Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:23 am

Pumbaa - My own success was based on internal use only, so my experience is very limited with topicals. 
I've never been too keen on topicals for all the usual inconveniences. 

That said I have received good feedback from this shampoo (which contains some of the actives). It is also worth adding that there is no SLS-based surfactants that contribute to neurogenic inflammation--in fact some of the actives have an anti-TRPA1 channels effect. 

http://hairevo.com/shop/view-all-products/19-ortho-organics-shampoo-1-bottle.html

All that said a microneedling approach will go much further with the topicals mentioned. And it won't hurt at all to use DMSO (diluted of course).

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  MikeGore on Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:00 pm

I've got a lithium chloride and just realized, I haven't a bloody clue as to what to do with it! It looks like its in powder form. Do I just dab a Q-tip into the powder and touch my skin with it, the area that I have dermaneedled? Ironically, it says that it causes skin irritation on the bottle.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Beebrox on Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:38 am

CausticSymmetry wrote:
Changexpert wrote:
CausticSymmetry wrote:Some of us will have an easier time if it is alopecia areata (AA) or especially Telogen effluvium, but the harder cases are a combination of AGA with AA,
or AGA with fibrosis or even worse AGA with folliculitis.
I definitely have AGA with AA as I am thinning not just the frontal/temporal and vertex, but also the sides and back. Some people might refer it as prolonged or even permanent telogen effluvium. What are the other two conditions that you brought up? How do we diagnose that?

In the case with AGA with AA or prolonged TE, do you have any suggestions that might be helpful besides eklonia cava? My body has allergic reactions to high dose iodine, and I've tried it numerous times to rule it out. I would appreciate your response.
The severe forms are frontal fibrosing alopecia, advanced androgenetic alopecia, scarring alopecia or in "doctorese" they call it cicatricial alopecia. There is also primary and secondary scarring type alopecia.

Depending on the type or situation, the treatment strategy changes.

The scarring variety results from deconstruction of pilosebaceous units which transform into scar tissue. 

Primary scarring alopecias affect the hair follicles. Secondary scarring alopecias affect the dermis and secondarily cause follicle destruction. 

It can be determined by a type of punch biopsy and a culture.

For example, the inflammation may involve lymphocytes or neutrophils. The types of hair loss that involve lymphocytic inflammation that can include discoid lupus erythematosus, lichen planopilaris, frontal fibrosing alopecia, central centrifugal alopecia, and Pseudopelade of Brocq. 

The scarring types of hair loss that are primarily from neutrophilic inflammation include folliculitis decalvans, tufted folliculitis, and dissecting cellulitis of the scalp. 

Another one is Folliculitis keloidalis is a type of scarring alopecia with a mixed inflammatory infiltrate.

Generally most of us do not have these very severe forms of hair loss...the most common feature of advanced AGA is some hint of insulin resistance or syndrome X metabolism.

CS, really liked your posting spree in this thread, it's never ending story regarding hairloss and learning about it.

To respond to this topic.  I believe, pictures from google, if verified with diagonosis of trust worthy source; can guide one towards diagnosing the condition. In the end it does not really matter, if one is focused about health and hair aspect is side effect of the journey, but surely more targeted approach is optimal.

Managing inflammation through means of nutrition, oxygenation and managing stress is when results are to be expected. In case of fibrosis alopecia (I am case who stopped condition along with thinning, scarring, AA ), would also recommend micro-needling. It does not need topicals if internal regimen is rich with deficient nutrients, so can reach the target of the problem. After needling, material rich blood will reach the source of a problem more easily. Another good source of breaking the ''progression'' is using violet ray on high intensity, so the spark can ''needle'' the skin barrier.

Another good repairing mechanism for such condition is sulfur in forms of DMSO and MSM along with addressing methylation to benefit from it's potential more. Not a whole lot pathogens can handle large amount of sulfur carrying oxygen well. When i'd had issues with scarring, methylation was really what got me back on track. When supplementing folate (MTHFR), scar became red and it looked inflamed. When poking it with VR, progression stopped to the point of no return. It took a few months to receive satisfying results, but it was also gut flora that received special attention during that time.  Note that methylation along with enough sulfur will open the pathways to transport unwanted material via phosphorlipid bilayer, and extracellular matrix. With that said, supporting the lymph-flow with sufficient movement can be a good scenario towards at least stopping the progression.

Not to mention sun. Light triggers far more than vitamin D production in terms of hair health.

Beebrox

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Pumbaa on Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:01 pm

CS or anyone with experience, what is the best way to prepare the scalp before applying DMSO? I'd like to avoid anything bad getting absorbed into my scalp. After it's applied, do you need to shampoo after awhile or will it all absorb? Thanks so much.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

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