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Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  The Hulk on Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:31 pm

I am going to apply the rosemary, peppermint and castor oil onto my scalp. Can anyone tell me how long a topical needs to sit on the skin for in order for absorption to take place? With something like castor oil, I am hoping around 15 minutes will be good before it needing to be washed out.

Thanks.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  CausticSymmetry on Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:02 am

Pumbaa wrote:CS or anyone with experience, what is the best way to prepare the scalp before applying DMSO? I'd like to avoid anything bad getting absorbed into my scalp. After it's applied, do you need to shampoo after awhile or will it all absorb? Thanks so much.

Try mixing 1 or 2 teaspoons of 99% DMSO into 8 to 12 oz container of the other substances.

It doesn't have to be DMSO either. MSM powder will work also.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  The Hulk on Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:27 am

Does anyone know how long a topical needs to sit on the skin for it to be absorbed?

Thanks.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  MikeGore on Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:57 am

So how I apply this lithium chloride. I have receive the item in powder form. Do I need to add it to something? I bought it from that link that was mentioned in the thread from ebay.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  The Hulk on Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:15 am

I think the general consensus is to not use the lithium chloride or lithium orotate. CS even removed this from his recommendations list.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  The Hulk on Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:17 am

I have attempted researching how long it takes for skin to absorb something applied to it and I cannot find anything (other than some brief comment referring to 26 seconds).

Does anyone have any idea on this?

Thanks

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  MikeGore on Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:41 am

I just used the lithium chloride and was super scared. I only dabbed a q-tip into the powder and than applied it to the area I dermaneedled. I was so afraid some powder from the q-tip would fall into my eye during application that I just put a mirror on my lap instead and applied it with my head facing downwards. I'm not sure if I am imagining things but feeling a taste now on my tongue and slight sensation on throat. Could've such a small amount of lithium chloride I applied onto my dermanatored temples have some how absorbed through the skin and getting taste on tongue and throat already?

Not sure if it worth doing all this, and if it is as dangerous as I think it is.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  UzumakiNaruto on Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:08 pm

CausticSymmetry wrote:
UzumakiNaruto wrote:isnt this being used in car batteries? is it safe to use it for the hair?

It's a natural mineral (even infants need 1 mg for optimal brain functioning), but yes it is a reactive mineral), so depending on its form or use can be used for either.

aaaahhh i see. thanks for the detailed answer.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  maple donut on Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:15 am

maybe i didn't do my research here, but WHERE in any of the scientific cannon is it even CORRELATED that by adding LITHIUM, in this form or any, into the direct and highly sensitive environment of a sub dermal puncture, is at all beneficial to the healing of fibrosistic tissues? Of all the things known to humankind (soothing plants, et al), this one stands out the most as something being not only erratic but also in the same annals of toxicity.

Forgive me for not doing my research but whre exactly is this claim originating?
Just want to know before I go all the way ( of course). your options are appreciated!

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  CausticSymmetry on Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:38 am

maple donut wrote:maybe i didn't do my research here, but WHERE in any of the scientific cannon is it even CORRELATED that by adding LITHIUM, in this form or any, into the direct and highly sensitive environment of a sub dermal puncture, is at all beneficial to the healing of fibrosistic tissues? Of all the things known to humankind (soothing plants, et al), this one stands out the most as something being not only erratic but also in the same annals of toxicity.

Forgive me for not doing my research but whre exactly is this claim originating?
Just want to know before I go all the way ( of course). your options are appreciated!

On page 1, I mentioned a brief history...and its uses are limited -- based on my experience I would limit it to seborrheic dermatitis. As for hair growth -- It didn't work on paper (more about this on page 1 of this thread).

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Pumbaa on Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:01 am

CS,

I've been reading a lot about DMSO and I'm getting a very mixed bag of reviews, some saying it's totally safe, and some saying it caused heart issues and other scary stuff. Of course, there will always be mixed review on experimental techniques, but this kinda turned me off from trying DMSO as a carrier for the castor oil mixture.

Would ethanol/everclear be a safer alternative? I know it can be drying but would it be safer than DMSO? I'm worried about the DMSO carrying unwanted things into my bloodstream. I live in California so can only obtain 151 proof everclear. Would this still be sufficient? If not, can you recommend a safer carrier? Thanks!

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  CausticSymmetry on Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:25 pm

Pumbaa wrote:CS,

I've been reading a lot about DMSO and I'm getting a very mixed bag of reviews, some saying it's totally safe, and some saying it caused heart issues and other scary stuff. Of course, there will always be mixed review on experimental techniques, but this kinda turned me off from trying DMSO as a carrier for the castor oil mixture.

Would ethanol/everclear be a safer alternative? I know it can be drying but would it be safer than DMSO? I'm worried about the DMSO carrying unwanted things into my bloodstream. I live in California so can only obtain 151 proof everclear. Would this still be sufficient? If not, can you recommend a safer carrier? Thanks!

Usually any worry about DMSO is from people who have either not used it before, or have read warning labels from FDA (Fraud Deception Approval)...When I worked in an integrative clinic, we sold DMSO (usually diluted down to 40%) as a rub on....my topical approach uses a dilution of 10%...so with that level, it's not possible for there to be a problem.

DMSO is only harmful if one uses levels above 70% concentration on the skin....

Still, MSM can be used instead if you are still concerned.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Pumbaa on Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:33 pm

Got it, thank you for the clarification. Do you have a brand you recommend?

What's the best way to prepare your hair/scalp before applying the DMSO so as to prevent any unwanted absorption of other substances? Castille shampoo? Thanks so much, CS.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  CausticSymmetry on Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:51 pm

Pumbaa wrote:Got it, thank you for the clarification. Do you have a brand you recommend?

What's the best way to prepare your hair/scalp before applying the DMSO so as to prevent any unwanted absorption of other substances? Castille shampoo? Thanks so much, CS.

If you're asking about what type of shampoo yes?

Castille shampoo (at least the one I am thinking of) it contains peppermint oil...not bad if it only hits the scalp, but worry about that into the blood stream....but maybe just monitor any negatives.

I usually use an SLS-free shampoo like this, but whatever is free of those chemical additives should be okay.

http://www.iherb.com/Acure-Organics-Shampoo-Lemongrass-Argan-Stem-Cell-8-fl-oz-235-ml/40491

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Pumbaa on Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:12 pm

Ah, sorry. I meant brand of DMSO.

Thanks for the info about which shampoo to use beforehand.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  CausticSymmetry on Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:42 am

Pumbaa wrote:Ah, sorry. I meant brand of DMSO.

Thanks for the info about which shampoo to use beforehand.

Not sure really....but look for 99% DMSO (you'll want to dilute it before use of course). DMSO comes from the bark of pine trees. There is a slew of research on it--but due to its beneficial effects the FDA slapped a scary warning label on it to discourage people from healing themselves (as per usual for their pharma clients).

at 99% it is a solvent. Any brand should work.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Pumbaa on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:52 pm

I think I found a solid one... 99.89% pure in a glass bottle.

After applying the DMSO/castor/rosemary topical, should it just be left on the scalp or washed off?

If washing it off, is there a shampoo with very minimal ingredients that could be used to avoid absorption of unintended ingredients? That lemongrass argan shampoo has a good amount of stuff in it that could be absorbed. Is that safe with the ingredients in that shampoo?

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  CausticSymmetry on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:29 am

Pumbaa wrote:I think I found a solid one... 99.89% pure in a glass bottle.

After applying the DMSO/castor/rosemary topical, should it just be left on the scalp or washed off?

If washing it off, is there a shampoo with very minimal ingredients that could be used to avoid absorption of unintended ingredients? That lemongrass argan shampoo has a good amount of stuff in it that could be absorbed. Is that safe with the ingredients in that shampoo?

It will absorb fairly quick enough, so no need to leave it on for too long.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Biffy on Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:49 pm

CausticSymmetry wrote:As with many things that seemed to sound good on paper, the hair growth effect just wasn't there.

Lithium on it's own will not go far, but if you look at Follica patent, the Lithium needs to be used after wounding - still it will do little, you will get rudiments of hair follicles, increased thickness of regenerated hair. Follica even experimented with Lithium, but it seems it's just not powerful enough WNT agonist to induce the required Fgf9 for full regeneration. Fgf9 increase means two to three-fold increase in the number of new hair follicles produced.

"In animal studies designed to explore the role of WNT, Fathke showed that prolonged activation of β-catenin dependent WNT signaling (i.e.. using lithium chloride as suggested by Morgan) during wound healing in mice resulted in generation of rudiments of hair follicles but did not result in the formation of hair follicles or growth of more hair. Fathke turned the focus of his investigation, instead, to the -catenin-independent WNTs expressed in the skin - which are not activated by lithium chloride. Unfortunately, the prolonged expression of the β-catcnin independent WNT yielded the same results - hair follicles were not generated in the mice."

"One of the newest patents that Follica has applied for includes Lithium treatments there have been research studies over the last 25 – 30 years that reveal a specific form of lithium when used in treatments for skin regeneration have shown a modicum of success. Whether this is what Follica is doing with their patent is not able to be confirmed."

Follica patent: "Topical lithium 8% increases shaft thickness of regenerated hair follicles following dermabrasion. Topical lithium gluconate 8% results in a 16% increase thickness of regenerated hair shafts following dermabrasion. Topical LiCl 8% increases the total number of neogenic hair follicles (also referred to as "HF") per FTE wound by 3-fold, based on histology of tissue sections."

"Notably, humans lack a robust population of resident dermal γδ T cells, potentially explaining their inability to regenerate hair after wounding. Conversely, overexpression of Fgf9 results in a two- to threefold increase in the number of neogenic hair follicles. We found that Fgf9 from γδ T cells triggers Wnt expression and subsequent Wnt activation in wound fibroblasts. The virtual absence of this growth factor in humans helps to explain why humans don’t regenerate their hair after wounding."


PGE2 is powerful in endogenously inducing Fgf9, so this could definitely grow some hair when applied! To further complicate things, there are a lot of efforts being made to block PGD2 and COX2, but both of these are needed in order to upregulate Fgf9, unfortunately.. So yes we have limited amount of growth factors responsible for the signaling (Fgf9), so Fgf9 should be our real focus, are there any natural ways other for increasing the Fgf9? I would say the one that I take internally are Curcumin, Iodine, Vitamin A and D3, Vitamin C, anything else that is important - Vitamin K2, Vitamin B12?

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Pumbaa on Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:49 pm

CS, I am tempted to still give LiCl a shot with wounding. From what I am reading, it would take a good amount internally to cause toxicity. Is that the case? Is there any serious concern with applying 10mg to each temple after wounding, once a week?

Interesting stuff, Biffy. I'm assuming you're following Swiss' regime? It seems FGF9 is down the chain from WNT:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16452189

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Elsa P on Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:34 pm

Seems amazing but can anyone post results of this method? I really want to know how well it works.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  MikeGore on Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:02 pm

I'm already doing this after wounding. Yesterday was only the second time I did it after using the derminator. I dabbed the Q-tip into the lithium chloride power and them applied it to my temples.

I do think I applied to little though. 10mg dosage on a q-tip is not easy to gauge. Heck, I actually think the q-tip had nothing on it. What is the best way to do this without exceeding 10mg. Do I pour a little lithium chloride on a paper, than wet the q-tip and dab it in. Because most of it just falls off, and I am just left with a q-tip with no lithium chloride on it.

Also, my other concern is, that I read somewhere on this forum, that the lithium chloride needs to be applied to slick bald areas. So what happens if I touch couple of hair follicles while applying? Will it be bad for those hair follicles?

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Biffy on Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:16 pm

MikeGore wrote:Also, my other concern is, that I read  somewhere on this  forum, that the lithium chloride needs to be applied to slick bald areas. So what happens if I touch couple of hair follicles while applying? Will it be bad for those hair follicles?

No Lithium does nothing bad to your follicles. Just measure 10 mg of Lithium and apply with wet q-tip.

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  MikeGore on Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:47 am

Biffy wrote:
MikeGore wrote:Also, my other concern is, that I read  somewhere on this  forum, that the lithium chloride needs to be applied to slick bald areas. So what happens if I touch couple of hair follicles while applying? Will it be bad for those hair follicles?

No Lithium does nothing bad to your follicles. Just measure 10 mg of Lithium and apply with wet q-tip.

Okay, I'll do it like that from now on. How do I measure it though? Do I need to buy something to do that? I only do this once a week btw.

Also, when applying to the temples there is risk of it falling into eyes, making it wet solves that problem. Is it really bad for eyes?

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Re: Lithium Chloride safety and alternatives

Post  Pumbaa on Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:34 am

MikeGore,

You can purchase a milligram scale on eBay... more expensive will be more accurate, less will be less-so. You can also opt for 10mg stainless steel scooping spoons on eBay, which is what I got. It's definitely not as accurate (as different compounds will have different weights and particle sizes, but it will get you close.)

Elsa P,

A guy who goes by the name 'SwissTemples' has recently had success using LiCl and wounding as one aspect of his regimen. You can check out his progress on his blog at www.swisstemples.com.

Biffy,

What about systematic toxicity of LiCL? I keep finding conflicting information. Can you point me in the direction of any studies to show it's safety internally?

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