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A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

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A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:01 am

If you believe Propecia is simply a synthetic progesterone (and it may be, but I don't have studies to show this)

then simply taking bio identical progesterone would be safer but produce similar effects.


It would be like taking synthetic astaxanthin versus taking regular natural astaxanthin.

I believe the harmful effects of propecia is because synthetic hormones are harmful, yet bio identical progesterone has shown to be helpful . progest E may be the best product.

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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  Changexpert on Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:59 am

iuyyighghghgkh wrote:If you believe Propecia is simply a synthetic progesterone (and it may be, but I don't have studies to show this)

then simply taking bio identical progesterone would be safer but produce similar effects.


It would be like taking synthetic astaxanthin versus taking regular natural astaxanthin.

I believe the harmful effects of propecia is because synthetic hormones are harmful, yet bio identical progesterone has shown to be helpful . progest E may be the best product.
Where did you hear that propecia is a form of progesterone? I've never heard of this before. Do you have the sources?
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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:47 am

I have two sources to show that finasteride may simply be a synthetic progesterone

1 ) danny roddy mentioned it in his book and one of his lastest videos

2) "Because of side effects I decided to stop Proscar (Finasteride) 35 days ago and replace it with Progesterone cream. "
why would he replace finasteride with progesterone ? maybe they are very similar
http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/still-confused-just-started-progesterone-cream.html#axzz3uzVDoA1z

3) structurally they are similar, but I think that's a weak argument

4) https://womensinternational.com/newsletter/article_propecia.html
"
An explanation for the damage perhaps lies with finasteride's chemical structure. Propecia: Wonder Drug? Or Dangerous Trade-off? Finasteride might be classified as a synthetic progestin and/or testosterone when you examine the features common in all three molecules. As we already know from many studies and observations, progestins never substitute for the action of progesterone. "

5) peat wrote extensively saying synthetic progesterone is harmful, but natural progesterone is safe.

I think it is a very legitimate argument.

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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  Shinobi on Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:54 pm

and what would you recomand as natural identical progesterone ?

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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:39 pm

progest-e is bio-identical

finasteride,diane35,Spironolactone are synthetic



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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  Shinobi on Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:40 pm

iuyyighghghgkh wrote:progest-e is bio-identical

finasteride,diane35,Spironolactone are synthetic


thanks it was my first though: wild yam

Would be interesting if CS tell us more about this herb because It has a long history past to help old women

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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:10 am

it doesn't convert to progesterone in the body though

that's the problem.

more evidence propecia is a synthetic progestin :

"This might be seen as speculation, but I think hair loss in young people is hormonal, so these people are in a weak state, and a synthetic progestin -which is what propecia is-, seems to make things even worse in some of them. "

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=7885.0

http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=360

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medroxyprogesterone_acetate#Comparison_with_progesterone

"If synthetic progestins caused heart disease, birth defects, and cancer, then the "natural progestin" was assumed to do that, too. It's important to realize the impact of logical fallacies on the medical culture."


Am I clutching st straws here ?

Who knows ? you decide.


summary of this topic :

1 ) danny roddy mentioned it in his book and one of his latest videos

2) "Because of side effects I decided to stop Proscar (Finasteride) 35 days ago and replace it with Progesterone cream. "
why would he replace finasteride with progesterone ? maybe they are very similar
http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/still-confused-just-started-progesterone-cream.html#axzz3uzVDoA1z

3) structurally they are similar, but I think that's a weak argument

4) https://womensinternational.com/newsletter/article_propecia.html
"
An explanation for the damage perhaps lies with finasteride's chemical structure. Propecia: Wonder Drug? Or Dangerous Trade-off? Finasteride might be classified as a synthetic progestin and/or testosterone when you examine the features common in all three molecules. As we already know from many studies and observations, progestins never substitute for the action of progesterone. "

5) peat wrote extensively saying synthetic progesterone is harmful, but natural progesterone is safe.

6) "This might be seen as speculation, but I think hair loss in young people is hormonal, so these people are in a weak state, and a synthetic progestin -which is what propecia is-, seems to make things even worse in some of them. "

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=7885.0

http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=360

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medroxyprogesterone_acetate#Comparison_with_progesterone

7) "If synthetic progestins caused heart disease, birth defects, and cancer, then the "natural progestin" was assumed to do that, too. It's important to realize the impact of logical fallacies on the medical culture."

8 ) we know proepcia is harmful.
   we know however a normal progesterone supplement is not.

9 ) to answer Shinobi,
"Bioidentical progesterone is always made from wild yam (used to be made from the corpus luteum of animals, but that is not economically viable). Diosgenin (from the yam) is chemically synthesized into a molecular structure identical to natural progesterone. This conversion can be done in a lab, but our bodies cannot make the conversion. Consuming wild yam is not the same as using bioidentical progesterone synthesized from wild yam (ie Progest-E)."

simply take bio identical progesterone, Progest-E.

the comparison is between taking synthetic vitamin c, astaxathin, and gmo corn versus eating natural vitamin c, normal astaxanthin and normal corn.


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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:30 am

be fucking careful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1VqEozOXjA

this is very interesting,
http://www.project-aware.org/Resource/articlearchives/differences.shtml

of course I may be wrong, and finasteride is not synthetic progesterone
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.18715;wap2

it's been mentioned many times on the internet.
I am surprised more people have not realised this, propecia is synthetic progesterone. it's really that simple.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

they have actually figured this out on hair loss forums. their problem is they cannot simplify language for the masses, and use simple terms and analogies.

natural progesterone actually increases dht

http://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/122997

"...At 6–8 h after administration of P, serum T and DHT levels were consistently increased without any alterations in the serum LH and FSH levels. Following disruption of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis either by adrenalectomy or by anterior hypothalamic deafferentation, procedures known to abolish serum T and P periodicities, P was again effective in raising serum T concentrations without altering the serum gonadotropin values. These results show that P may directly enhance testicular secretion, and thus support the possibility that the observed adrenal influence on daily testicular T secretion pattern may be hormonally mediated via P secretion."


http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/showthread.php/14548

"After a couple of free consultations with various "hair clinics" I just forked out to see a qualified trichologist (probably about 2 years too late, but what can you do).

The end result of my 1.5 hr consultation was the suggestion that, as an alternative to propecia, I use a topical solution inhibiting the formation of DHT. The solution is made up of the following 2 anti-androgens often taken orally by female hair loss sufferers:

1.Cyproterone acetate
2.Medroxyprogesterone

This combination has been used, I've been told, with great success by both male and female hair loss sufferers over the last few years. There are obviously potential side effects for men with the potential of absorbtion into the system which, technically, could cause side effects similar to those caused by propecia. However in the trichologist's experience the benefits of this topical combination match those of propecia, the side effects occur far less often and certainly with less severity, and, although like with everything it will gradually lose effectiveness over time, it can be used indefinitely (unlike propecia usage which, apparently, cannot and should not be sustained over the very long term).

For the last three years the group to which this trichlogist belongs have been combining this solution with 3% minoxidil very successfully.

There is so much information out there about what works and what doesn't. I'm in london and have just paid a lot to hear the opinion of a well respected and very experienced trichlogist, but am feeling very cynical about what's been proposed to me.

If this stuff works surely we'd all be using it? "


raypeat
"Medroxyprogesterone acetate is considered a progestin (though it is not supportive of gestation), because it modifies the uterus in approximately the wasy progesterone does, but it is luteolytic, and lowers the ovaries' production of progesterone while progesterone itself has a positive effect on the corpus luteum, stimulating progesterone synthesis. Defining “progestin” in a narrow way allows many synthetics to be sold as progestogens, though some of them are strongly estrogenic, allowing them to function as contraceptives--it is odd that contraceptives and agents which suppress progesterone synthesis should be officially called “supported of pregnancy.” It is probably partly the acetate group in the medroxyprogesterone acetate molecule which makes it bind firmly to receptors, yet causes it to block the enzymes which would normally be involved in progesterone metabolism. "

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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  Shinobi on Fri Dec 25, 2015 3:09 am

iuyyighghghgkh wrote:
9 ) to answer Shinobi,
"Bioidentical progesterone is always made from wild yam (used to be made from the corpus luteum of animals, but that is not economically viable). Diosgenin (from the yam) is chemically synthesized into a molecular structure identical to natural progesterone. This conversion can be done in a lab, but our bodies cannot make the conversion. Consuming wild yam is not the same as using bioidentical progesterone synthesized from wild yam (ie Progest-E)."

simply take bio identical progesterone, Progest-E.

the comparison is between taking synthetic vitamin c, astaxathin, and gmo corn versus eating natural vitamin c, normal astaxanthin and normal corn.


diosgenin is extracted from wilm yam not synthetised. If you take wild yam you will get very few % of it, but if you can take a standardized extract maybe. Progest E is kind of that but oily one.

As your exemple, i would not agree: natural L-ascorbic acid is same as synthetic L-ascorbic acid. I invite you to give me one single fact that is not. You will not find because they are same. The only difference is that the fruit comes with others antioxdant.

I agree however for synthetic versus natural astaxathin since the difference remain in the attached fatty acid to the natural molecule (natural astaxanthin is 95% esterified)


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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Fri Dec 25, 2015 4:47 am

yes, perhaps the vitamin c comparison is wrong

but isn't it strange how many progesterone like substances they take on hair loss forums,

when they could just take natural progesterone, which is at least safe ?

synthetic vitamins are safe
even synthetic astaxanthin may be safe

synthetic hormones ??? you are playing with fire

it just clicked in my head like a lightbulb moment

all the hair loss treatments on forums are actually synthetic hormones used by trangender people

finasteride
Spironolactone
Cyproterone acetate

the similarities between hair loss forums and transgender forums are shocking, and they DO take finasteride on transgender forums.

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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  Shinobi on Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:13 am

iuyyighghghgkh wrote:yes, perhaps the vitamin c comparison is wrong

but isn't it strange how many progesterone like substances they take on hair loss forums,

when they could just take natural progesterone, which is at least safe ?

synthetic vitamins are safe
even synthetic astaxanthin may be safe

synthetic hormones ??? you are playing with fire

it just clicked in my head like a lightbulb moment

all the hair loss treatments on forums are actually synthetic hormones used by trangender people

finasteride
Spironolactone
Cyproterone acetate

the similarities between hair loss forums and transgender forums are shocking, and they DO take finasteride on transgender forums.
i also prefer use extracted substance from nature rather than synthetic one. I encourage you to continue in the progesterone like way. I studied more the estrogen ones (see all the thread in this forum about ERa / ERb etc. I still important for me to activate ERb wich i does moderatly using some estrogenic herbs such as natto (wich also contain the good MK7 vitamin > natural anti dht by itself too). Problem is even natural hormones should be used moderalty, its much safer of course, but it also decrease for instance sperm production in a proportional way.

My next candidate is spermidine. Problem is : only synthetic form on the market > it coes packaged with chemical impurities, i tested many it myself in a lab.

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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:26 pm

i think we should look at people who get success, and see what they use, and work backwards

and people on hair loss forums are using very similar progesterone derivatives like the ones mentioned

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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:35 am

common sense says synthetic hormones would be dangerous.

also accutane, which is synthetic vitamin a, is outright poison too


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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:16 am

not good stuff

Use of cyproterone acetate, finasteride, and spironolactone to treat idiopathic hirsutism.
(which are actually hair loss treatments )
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12749435
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15464773

raypeat has written about synthetic progesterone if you want to research this field yourself, including one used for hair loss

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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  CausticSymmetry on Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:47 am

I started researching and taking natural USP progesterone cream in the mid-1990's.

Speaking of finasteride, it blocks the steroid pathway for progesterone metabolites, including allopregenolone (a protective neurosteroid for the brain).

Progesterone cream itself is a bit tricky, mainly because its half-life is too short.  When used topically it would quell the inflammation and then come roaring back just as bad not long afterwards.

Using on the testicular sac is viable for young people for some cycles in the month, but all in all, this method misses the mark on other factors in MPB.

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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:08 pm

i agree

if anything, this thread is simply to show what propecia is,

it's amazing that so many people don't actually know what it is.

it seems obvious to ask, yet no one could really tell you

once a person knows what it is, whatever they do next is up to them


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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  TheDivineMarquis on Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:47 pm

CausticSymmetry wrote:I started researching and taking natural USP progesterone cream in the mid-1990's.

Speaking of finasteride, it blocks the steroid pathway for progesterone metabolites, including allopregenolone (a protective neurosteroid for the brain).

Progesterone cream itself is a bit tricky, mainly because its half-life is too short.  When used topically it would quell the inflammation and then come roaring back just as bad not long afterwards.

Using on the testicular sac is viable for young people for some cycles in the month, but all in all, this method misses the mark on other factors in MPB.


But does it increase or decrease DHT/5AR?
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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:32 am

Progesterone will INCREASE dht in men. this is a good thing.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15669543

http://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/122997

"...At 6–8 h after administration of P, serum T and DHT levels were consistently increased without any alterations in the serum LH and FSH levels. Following disruption of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis either by adrenalectomy or by anterior hypothalamic deafferentation, procedures known to abolish serum T and P periodicities, P was again effective in raising serum T concentrations without altering the serum gonadotropin values. These results show that P may directly enhance testicular secretion, and thus support the possibility that the observed adrenal influence on daily testicular T secretion pattern may be hormonally mediated via P secretion."


And that isn't the question, since most of us don't believe DHt causes hair loss.

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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  TheDivineMarquis on Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:42 am

iuyyighghghgkh wrote:Progesterone will INCREASE dht in men. this is a good thing.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15669543

http://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/122997

"...At 6–8 h after administration of P, serum T and DHT levels were consistently increased without any alterations in the serum LH and FSH levels. Following disruption of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis either by adrenalectomy or by anterior hypothalamic deafferentation, procedures known to abolish serum T and P periodicities, P was again effective in raising serum T concentrations without altering the serum gonadotropin values. These results show that P may directly enhance testicular secretion, and thus support the possibility that the observed adrenal influence on daily testicular T secretion pattern may be hormonally mediated via P secretion."


And that isn't the question, since most of us don't believe DHt causes hair loss.


If dht wouldnt cause hair loss propecia wouldnt work. Dht is not bad for health, tough its bad for those whose genetics blessed them with hair loss. The problem with this forum is sort of a dogmatic faith that hair = health.

The problem with the relation between progesterone and dht its that in the studies you presented there was an increase in dht; but in this one, the opposite happens: http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jcem-38-1-142

Also: http://www.follacure.com/t/progesterone
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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:20 am

but propecia is synthetic progesterone

Which is the whole point of this thread

There are progesterone receptors in the prostate.

And since propecia is a prostate drug, it makes sense.

http://www.healthyhormones.com/news/news05.htm

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Re: A realistic alternative for people wanting to take Propecia

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:01 am

TheDivineMarquis wrote:The problem with the relation between progesterone and dht its that in the studies you presented there was an increase in dht; but in this one, the opposite happens: http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jcem-38-1-142


100mg was used in the study. that's a lot.

propecia is 1mg. progesterone dosing is usually 3mg.

i am not sure what is meant by the term radioactive testosterone either

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