Official Vegan Thread

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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  sanderson on Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:25 pm

john3333 wrote:
sanderson wrote:
john3333 wrote:
sanderson wrote:
john3333 wrote:
sanderson wrote:
are you kidding me? eggs, milk, liver, oysters, bone broth has no nutrients? it was way more nutrient dense than any other diet. coconut oil is the healthiest.. it mimics the state of your body... look at it, in the hot weather, it turns to liquid. you think gluten is good for you??? WTF??
Oysters and seafood are too high in toxins.
Gluten grains are good for most people. They have hundreds of antioxidants. CS has talked about one antioxidant found in wheat, lignans. Phytic acid, which is sold as a supplement, is another antioxidant missing from a Peatarian diet that has a wide range of benefits including protection against cancer.  Wheat has anti-cancer properties.
Vegan diets are proven to cure heart disease, while Peatarian diets may cause heart attacks. If someone gets a heart attack on a diet, the diet may not be such a good one.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/i-had-a-heart-attack-on-sat-22-8-2015.7621/
It's not surprising since saturated fat clogged the arteries of eskimos.
The people who will beat Jeanne Calment have already been born and they are vegans. One of those vegans might be this young 70 year old vegan. Wait a few years for the older raw vegans to make it to the age of 100+ with a full head of hair. This is what happens when you follow a diet based on scientific evidence, not just hope.
If Jeanne Calment ate coconut oil instead of olive oil she would have died at 80 since coconut oil has no micronutrients.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gZ4U3V5LEc
CS's supplements are extracts that can be found in foods, including plants.
All of my friends who are interested in health eat whole grains and legumes. The other people who eat meat with salads and fruit are overweight. Everyone interested in longevity and who spends loads of their days reading studies tends to eat a diet that lowers IGF1 and low in protein. When you disagree with me, you're disagreeing with the majority of people interested in health. It's common knowledge that processed foods, which include oil and butter, are unhealthy.
Grains are not much different from vegetables. They are both rich in minerals and phytonutrients.
Plant foods contain beta-sitosterol, and so they are hairgrowth-promoting.
Edit: I forgot to say that I went mostly gluten-free for three years since everybody said it was bad. I realized it's actually a superfood and just another normal safe grain and have added it back into my diet. Since adding it back into my diet, I have not experienced any increased hairloss or inflammation.






I'm not saying a vegan diet is perfect. The perfect one would be raw vegan of course. Liquidarian diet is good too especially for beginners.

good points. the fact that someone ages barely anything on the vegan diet is a big draw for me and something i've thought about a lot. it's clear ray peat isn't aging any better than them. from a female perspective, i think the raw vegan diet would work well, but it's interesting the effects of it. i work with a woman who is a vegan, i will not lie, she does look young for her age without a doubt. without a doubt. she looks good. she's in her 40s, maybe even 50s  actually. however, her temperature is very, very low. one time i felt her hand, it felt like ice cold.

it's clear her thyroid wasn't working well on the diet. why? probably not enough carbs. we all care about hair here, so really at the end of the day, who cares as long as it keeps hair right? well that is honestly the dillemma. i don't know the cause of hair loss.

i think the vegan diet probably makes you age better because you are releasing less insulin for one. fruit doesn't spike insulin very high compared to regular sugar. the thing is with fructose versus regular sugar. however, on the peat diet, the big insulin spiker is dairy. but his major carb is also fruit juice, so he has that going for him. however, peat is also utilizing thyroid hormone to handle the insulin load. i think the insulin will still go very high with dairy and thyroid won't be able to really stop it though, it still will spike high no matter what.

really, i don't understand hair loss, i don't think anyone does.

it seems like a big problem is PGD2 as being high in scalps with balding. for sake of argument, let's say that this is the cause of hair loss. this is essentially PUFA causing this. PUFA is the precursor to it being created. PUFA accumulates in your fat cells when you eat those bad oils. i mean, basically ray peat diet is making you lower cortisol as much as possible by maintaining blood sugar and not letting cortisol spike at all. when cortisol spikes ,your body will release fat including PGD2 that has been accumulating, granted if you have been eating unhealthy during most of your life, whih i will assume most people with MPB have.

if you are eating raw vegan, you probably aren't getting PUFA either, another win for hair loss. but really ,what is causing the hair loss, that is the question.

so i mean, as long as your cortisol isn't spiknig too high, i think it could be good. i just don't see how somoene with a bad thyroid, aka the lady i work with, based on her temperature being so low, can maintain hair. hair = thyroid.

then again, i'm coming from the assumption that PGD2 causes hair loss and low thyroid would assume you have higher cortiol there. i mean, if you have no PGD2 in your fat cells, maybe it is not a problem.

jared leto, he also looks really young, he's like 44 or 45 and looks like he's in his 20's, even early 30's, but still good. he has been thi way for a long time, i dont think he has many PUFA in his body, maybe that is how he avoided balding?

oysters do contain toxins, i agree, i think they contain many metals accumulated there, however, and a big however, they contain many trace minerals that you wouldn't get from other places, which is why ray recommends it, but recommends it on a weekly basis or a couple times a week, not everyday for that reason. probably if your liver is in good shape, you could probably handle it.

another part of the problem with balding is the fungus and dandruff part of it. it really seems like a lot of people balding have the dandruff. i have it too, even right now, i've been working close to 12 months trying to fight it and not really getting anywhere in that time. i don't know where that plays a part, how is it releated to PGD2, and is it PGD2 that is a part of the dandruff aspect? if you lose your hair from PGd2, is it different from losing it from fungus?

it seems to me some kind of histamine reaction to things, maybe from a lack of properly workin thyroid, causing sinus buildup in the skull or something along those lines leading to all the problems. i really dk though. really the reason i follow peat is because he connects the hormones back to the diet and back again. you know what you are doing from a thyroid perspective with food. aka, you eat fruit, your thyroid turns on, you need protein with it to handle it, and these vitamins do xyz with estrogen, progesterone, thyroid, etc etc.

with raw vegan, i don't really know what is happening how or how to fix it.

anyway that is a lot, a lot of things i've been thinking about lately, and things that are not really well covered anywhere unfortuantely at this time, and probably won't be explained for another couple hundred of years. if you can handle the vegan diet , that is amazing, but i think it takes al ot of work to make it work, and i really dk the cause of baldness, so i don't know if it would really help from that perspective.
If you don't want to go vegan, the least you should do is avoid salt. Salt is worshipped by Ray Peat and PerfectHealthDiet.
Salt is dangerous. When I eat it, I get thirsty. This is not natural. Even fruitarians, who get tons of water,potassium and other electrolytes, experience raises in blood pressure and severe thirst after the 1/4th tsp of salt. You're putting yourself at risk for heart disease when you eat it. Michael Greger's research and the testimonials of thousands prove that salt is anti-health.

Do this and you will not have problems with hypertension. Oils also cause hypertension. Oils might be WORSE than liver. Don't be afraid of mineral-rich fruits like bananas and mangos.
Peatarians crave salt because they are deficient in potassium,calcium, and magnesium- all of which are found in mineral-rich fruits or grains.

That's not true... salt allows your body to retain magnesium, calcium, and potassium, it is not bad for you, it is amazing for you. Salt also increases your metabolic rate. That's why it is making you want to eat more. Without adequate salt in your diet, you are going to be losing those essential minerals.

And his diet is very high in potassium, calcium, and magnesium. If you read his prolactin article, he actually praises magnesium and calcium in a very, very high way. Calcium and magnesium both help to suppress prolactin. Ray peat himself gets like 4k mg of calcium a day. Yes, 4,000mg a day. I said that right. He also advocates dairy as the main source of protein in the diet. That is the biggest calcium source. And he drinks like 5 cups a day of coffee, which i where he gets the magnesium. He also recommends epsom salt baths, gelatin, and kale broth as other ways to get magnesium.

If anything.. the vegan diet is lacking in calcium massively and probably will make you increase your prolactin. You realize how much kale you need to eat to get calcium? Like an entire plate full, literally a full plate stacked up in order to get the daily requirement and it's only in the dark leafy greens. I think you should take another look at it.. those facts are not true. I have tried eating enough kale to get the daily calcium requirement.. I will tell you right now, good luck with that. It is basically not possible. You will want to throw up from eating enough of it.
Almond milk has more calcium than cow's milk.

Raw milk can have parasites and bacteria.
Milk is high in antibiotics and pesticides. It also raises IGF-1 too much.
Too much calcium might lead to calcification.

Almonds are high in PUFA... PUFA is the pre cursor to PGD2...
Finding a good milk source can be challenge, I agree..... but they exist..... as in grass fed + pasturized
Too much calcium will not cause calcification.. a lack of calcium will initiate your body to start leeching calcium from body, which will in turn start to increase your blood calcium level.. it's called the calcium paradox... you will never stop be able to lower your prolactin unless you have enough calcium...
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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  Hotspur on Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:03 pm

john3333 wrote:
blackjack wrote:durianrider takes steroids though...

http://static4.techinsider.io/image/56bc9dd82e526554008b67f6-1920-1080/vegan%20gains%20youtube%20announcement.png
Vegan Gains can't stop gaining muscle mass on a vegan diet.
He also has a good hairline thanks to veganism.

Hey John,

I've been a pescetarian for almost 20 years and vegan for 2. I remember when I discovered NutritionFacts.org, The China Study and developed the ability to see through the propaganda of the meat, dairy and egg industry.

For a while I became almost evangelical, because eating meat is fucked up on every (Heath, Environment, Ethics) level. But in all reality Vegan Gains (who knows his shit) doesn't have a good hairline for a guy of his age.

Alot of people lose their hair after shifting to a plant based vegan diet. It isn't the answer yet.

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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  john3333 on Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:33 pm

Hotspur wrote:
Hey John,

I've been a pescetarian for almost 20 years and vegan for 2. I remember when I discovered NutritionFacts.org, The China Study and developed the ability to see through the propaganda of the meat, dairy and egg industry.

For a while I became almost evangelical, because eating meat is fucked up on every (Heath, Environment, Ethics) level. But in all reality Vegan Gains (who knows his shit) doesn't have a good hairline for a guy of his age.

Alot of people lose their hair after shifting to a plant based vegan diet. It isn't the answer yet.  
Veganism is 100% science. People, like sanderson, think it's joke.

What happens in the colon:
Carbohydrates -> ferments by healthy bacteria -> butyrate and other beneficial compounds are created -> reverses colon cancer
Fats -> oxidized, especially if you consume heme iron, only found in meat -> causes colon cancer
Protein ->  hydrogen sulfide, ammonia

There's much more happening in the colon.

Give a Peatarian and a vegan a colonoscopy and you'll see. This is why Dr. Oz had polyps when he had a colonoscopy. Dr.Oz has his own show about health, has created diets, advocates eating healthy, and is a surgeon yet he still got a polyp. How can someone who has dedicated his life to being so healthy fail in his own health? Animal products.
Give a colonoscopy to Durianrider and it'll be perfect.


It's intuitive to avoid fat anyways for these reasons:
Ketogenic diets cause halitosis. This is why people in ketosis smell like feces. https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/1j1tn0/i_smell_so_bad/
Fat has zero flavor, unlike fruit, vegetables, sweet potatoes.
More calories per gram than carbs or protein. - this causes people to overeat.
It makes you sad to know you are eating an animal that was killed.




(PS: Pissing bodybuilders and people on the ketogenic diet off with real science is my favorite game. I hate them with all my heart and soul.)
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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  john3333 on Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:45 pm

Sanderson,
The milk Peatarians drink is one of the worst foods ever.
CS himself has said so too. He has said you need raw, unpasteurized A2 milk.

CausticSymmetry http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t10374-shedding-has-stopped wrote:
Milk - If it's unpasteurized (raw), grass-fed, and A2 (not A1-beta casein) it's going to be beneficial.
The "A1" variety is estimated to be significantly more toxic than gluten, 10 to 13 times more so).
TEN to THIRTEEN times worse than gluten? Those Peatarians are really unhealthy! Especially Ray Peat who drinks 10+ cups of milk a day. 10 x 13 = 130!!!!!! (unless he doesn't drink the bad stuff).

I don't completely agree with CS though. We've known for years dairy is one of the causes of autism.
http://www.peta.org/features/got-autism-learn-link-dairy-products-disease/
Casein is toxic. Almond and soy milks are a healthy alternative.
Soy is underrated. People who live longer are more likely to eat soy like the Okinawans, Japanese, Seventh day Adventists, vegans, and others interested in health. Many studies have shown benefits from phytoestrogens. What you want to avoid are the xeneoestrogens.
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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  john3333 on Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:11 am


There aren't even any good studies on meat diets. Veganism works.
Paleo diets may negate the benefits of exercise.


The truth is that if Michael Greger found evidence for paleo or Peatarian diets he would post it, but he hasn't found anything. He's not out to make people unhealthy or force veganism.
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The Inflammatory Meat Molecule Neu5Gc

Post  john3333 on Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:10 am


This might be one of the reasons people who eat chicken and fish instead of red meat are healthier than those who eat mostly red meat. Of course any meat is bad, but if you must eat it, I recommend eating poultry and seafood.

If any of you guys have converted to pescetarian, vegetarian, and best, vegan, you should post your results in this thread.

Here is a good post on the truth about sea salt, celtic sea salt, table salt, and other salts.
http://www.jeffnovick.com/RD/Articles/Entries/2012/3/28_The_Truth_About_Sea_Salt.html
Jeffnovick.com is another site that agrees with the science on oil that it will destroy your health.
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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  john3333 on Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:54 pm

I'm so fucking destroyed right now.

I woke up at 6 am. I put some quinoa to cook at about 6:30am. I've had problems with this quinoa before. It fucking hates getting cooked. It takes longer to cook than the other quinoas I've had. It's hell. It's the regular white quinoa too. It takes too fucking long. But today I I put it to cook and about 20 minutes in I put one potato in chopped. This ruined my whole life right now. It didn't cook. It took about 1 hour for all of it to cook. But I had to fucking trash it. It was burned at the bottom so it's complete fucking shit. And this happens so damn much, luckily not too recently. Cooking is like a spiritual challenge. I just had a meltdown and I'm so angry cuz it's 8:30am and I spent so much time for nothing as usual. And it wasn't my fucking fault it burned. I put so much damn water as usual into it, which I hate because it becomes so damn water, but I have to or else it will burn. Adding more water to it never works because somehow the water goes to the top instead of the bottom so it burns anyways. And yes I do stir it! It's hell. It's hell. It's hell. I had to throw it all away and then I got angry and made a mess on the floor because I threw all of the quinoa away on the floor. This is crazy and it happens so much to me. This happens to nobody else!
So many times. A few times I've tried to make peas, but they take 3+ hours, I'm not joking. It's because they're selling extra-hard peas! So in those times it stays raw and I don't think I've ever eaten those peas cuz I got pissed off and had to eat something else. Quinoa usually takes me 40 minutes too, instead of what the package says, 20 minutes.  This happens with every food-lentils,beans,amaranth, millet everything! Millet is terrible too. It can't even be cooked. I hate it so much. I'm doing everything right too. I read the package and do what it says exactly. My food burns so frequently. The only legume/grain that I can count on to not burn is lentils, but it takes so long to cook, at least 1 hours. The package says 20 minutes. They always say 20 minutes but it takes at least 1 hour always! What the fuck! Same with beans. No way do they take 1 hour as the package or internet says. What the fuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had to cook 2 plantains quickly in the microwave. I'm so disappointed. And speaking of peas, one time I put a small amount in my quinoa and had to take out every single pea because it was still rock hard!! That was fucking hell and i hated eating it even though I took out each single pea manually. I really don't know why everything is so hard for me. Nobody else has to go through this. Cooking on the stove is insanely difficult.
I guess it was my fault this time for adding something to the quinoa. I had perfected the method to cooking it somewhat. Well it never ever came out perfect, but at least it was somewhat edible. I'm not even trying to cook something complicated like a cake. I just wanted to make some regular food. I'm still pissed off, but I ate 2 plantains and some stuff right now, and I still have to clean up the mess I made when I threw the quinoa on the floor out of anger. Nobody else has to go through this as much as I do. Life is many times harder for me, but I don't know what I get out of this suffering. I really don't understand.
I'm breathing deeply in now and trying to relax. Cooking is so difficult. I don't understand it. I forgot I put some more quinoa to cook but it's probably burned by now. It's ok this time though. I'm so terrible at cooking but it's never my fault. It really isn't. Luckily somebody invented an electric steamer and a microwave and processed food and spaghetti. That way someone like me, with terrible luck, the worst luck ever, won't starve to death. My life is always many times harder than others in every way. Not just this
Edit: I forgot to say I hate amaranth too. It's terrible. It hates getting cooked.
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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  johnt on Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:55 am

You really need to chill out dude. It's not good for the hair or health to get so worked up and think so negatively about your circumstances, especially compared to anyone else. We're all faced with our own challenges and need to learn to work through them. If cooking is difficult, take a class, keep practicing, try other methods, different foods.

Do you meditate? Do you exercise regularly? Hopefully you do, but if not start asap. It will really combat that stress you have about your hair, and other things happening in your life.

Hope all is well.

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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  Organism on Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:43 am

john3333 wrote:Sanderson,
The milk Peatarians drink is one of the worst foods ever.
CS himself has said so too. He has said you need raw, unpasteurized A2 milk.

CausticSymmetry http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t10374-shedding-has-stopped wrote:
Milk - If it's unpasteurized (raw), grass-fed, and A2 (not A1-beta casein) it's going to be beneficial.
The "A1" variety is estimated to be significantly more toxic than gluten, 10 to 13 times more so).
TEN to THIRTEEN times worse than gluten? Those Peatarians are really unhealthy! Especially Ray Peat who drinks 10+ cups of milk a day. 10 x 13 = 130!!!!!! (unless he doesn't drink the bad stuff).

I don't completely agree with CS though. We've known for years dairy is one of the causes of autism.
http://www.peta.org/features/got-autism-learn-link-dairy-products-disease/
Casein is toxic. Almond and soy milks are a healthy alternative.
Soy is underrated. People who live longer are more likely to eat soy like the Okinawans, Japanese, Seventh day Adventists, vegans, and others interested in health. Many studies have shown benefits from phytoestrogens. What you want to avoid are the xeneoestrogens.

A lot of major claims in this thread, little to zero science even though you assume there is, aka durian-rider logic. If not post the legitimate studies to back them up instead relying on authoritative persons.

So possible to be healthy on a vegan diet, however just because you're vegan doesn't mean you're going to to be healthy. Same goes for eating animal foods.

I would argue with eating vegan there's more chances of being unhealthy because it's much harder to do.

When milk is done right it's good. Provides easily assimilated protein and nutrients like calcium.

"Casein is toxic" Please, no one takes that china-study related rat feeding seriously.

Vegans dramatically rely on the china-study when it's been majorly refuted. When the raw data was re-assessed, plant protein was directly associated with cancer there was also positive correlations, mortality of all types of cancer showed stronger association with plant protein than animal protein. https://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/

So I'm not saying all animal protein is beneficial, usually depending on the amount. Over eating muscle meats can be problematic and usually is in western society, too much tryptophan can be stressful so needs to be balanced with other animal proteins.

But to say all animal protein is bad, is unscientific and complete bullshit.

Traditionally societies ate the whole animal which provided a different, much healthier ratio of protein composition.

Masai tribe rely on a lot of dairy, blood and meat and are one of the most healthiest populations.



Some benefits of specific Animal Proteins

Whey protein found in dairy is anti-cancer.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17430183
Parodi, P. W. (2007). A role for milk proteins and their peptides in cancer prevention. Current pharmaceutical design,13(Cool, 813-828.

Metabolic effects of amino acid mixtures and whey protein in healthy subjects: studies using glucose-equivalent drinks.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17413098

Antioxidative and Antibacterial Peptides Derived from Bovine Milk Proteins.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27558592

Glycine as a potent anti-angiogenic nutrient for tumor growth.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17567469

L-Glycine: a novel antiinflammatory, immunomodulatory, and cytoprotective agent.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12589194

Effects of orally administered glycine on myofibrillar proteolysis and expression of proteolytic-related genes of skeletal muscle in chicks.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17624491

Taurine prevents free fatty acid-induced hepatic insulin resistance in association with inhibiting JNK1 activation and improving insulin signaling in vivo.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20855122

Taurine supplementation reduces oxidative stress and improves cardiovascular function in an iron-overload murine model.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15037530

Therapeutic effect of taurine against aluminum-induced impairment on learning, memory and brain neurotransmitters in rats.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24770980

Simulative evaluation of taurine against alopecia caused by stress in Caenorhabditis elegans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23392889

Taurine Ameliorates Renal Oxidative Damage and Thyroid Dysfunction in Rats Chronically Exposed to Fluoride.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27334436

Glycine protects against PUFA;corn oil.
http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/content/20/11/2095.long

Diets enriched in whey or casein improve energy balance and prevent morbidity and renal damage in salt-loaded and high-fat-fed spontaneously hypertensive stroke-prone rats.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27611102


Okinawans eat animal foods and the amount of soy they eat is debatable compared to what a western diet gets. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16898863


Find me a traditional vegan diet that thrived. You can't.


[The effects on the thyroid gland of soybeans administered experimentally in healthy subjects].
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1868922

These findings suggested that excessive soybean ingestion for a certain duration might suppress thyroid function and cause goiters in healthy people, especially elderly subjects.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7892296

Flaxseed contains high levels of phytoestrogens. Chaparral has been associated with acute nonviral toxic hepatitis and contains lignans that are structurally similar to known estrogenic compounds. Both flaxseed and chaparral products have been marketed as dietary supplements

Dietary estrogens stimulate human breast cells to enter the cell cycle.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9168007

Our findings are consistent with a conclusion that dietary estrogens at low concentrations do not act as antiestrogens, but act like DDT and estradiol to stimulate human breast cancer cells to enter the cell cycle.

Potential adverse effects of phytoestrogens.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7884563

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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  blackjack on Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:59 am

I doubt i would go full vegan, but i have been trying to reduce my meat intake... I still consume a lot of milk though but i stopped eating eggs.

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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  johndoe1225 on Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:07 am

blackjack wrote:I doubt i would go full vegan, but i have been trying to reduce my meat intake... I still consume a lot of milk though but i stopped eating eggs.

I read that consuming gelatin along with "muscle meats" mitigates the downsides a bit, not really sure though.

Also I'm still wondering about the difference between gelatin and hydrolyzed collagen, I think it's more or less the same thing, but HC one dissolves easier in drinks and stuff.

Also @Organism; Interesting stuff, but about flaxseeds, I read somewhere that rather than mess up the balance of estrogen, it actually normalizes it, what do you think?  I really love taking a few tbsps of ground flaxseed meal and mixing it into a cup of plain Greek yogurt.  Aren't the flax lignans supposed to be healthy?  I even saw an article on them at hairloss-research. But then apparently they are a bit high in PUFA.

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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  blackjack on Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:09 pm

I still take the great lakes gelatin 50g a day.

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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  johndoe1225 on Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:17 pm

blackjack wrote:I still take the great lakes gelatin 50g a day.

Is that like 3 tablespoons? I think different powders can be measured differently, I am actually confused as to how much MSM powder I'm taking, I take 0.5 tablespoons twice a day, I used to think 1 tablespoon was 15 grams but I don't know anymore, lol.

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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  zanza on Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:12 pm

john3333 wrote:blackjack,
Protein is an obesogen and carcinogen at high doses. This is why zero fruitarians are fat or have cancer. It's impossible to get cancer as a fruitarian.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ez5pP2PSkgg/hqdefault.jpg
This is what durianrider looks like thanks to his diet of fruit, sugar, and rice.
Protein causes aging.
Protein restriction makes people live longer.
Calorie restriction makes people live longer because you eat less protein.
Protein is just one of the many unhealthy components of meat.
Protein increases the cancer growth-promoting hormone, IGF-1.

Steve Jobs says hi.  Durian Rider is a druggie with serious mental problems.

Raw Till 4 Cult exposed


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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  Hotspur on Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:25 pm

It's unfortunate that Organism should at once criticize The China Study and promote a 'blogger'. The China Study remains credible while 'Nutrition Scientists' scoff at Minger's claims. Then you cite the Masai Tribe.

The overwhelming majority of Nutrition Scientists believe animal products promote chronic disease. Bloggers, and our friend Organism here, disagree. Let's try and keep this thread on track.

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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  Organism on Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:07 am

Hotspur wrote:It's unfortunate that Organism should at once criticize The China Study and promote a 'blogger'. The China Study remains credible while 'Nutrition Scientists' scoff at Minger's claims. Then you cite the Masai Tribe.

The overwhelming majority of Nutrition Scientists believe animal products promote chronic disease. Bloggers, and our friend Organism here, disagree. Let's try and keep this thread on track.


Look at the data on real china study data, and the conversation between her and T. Colin Campbell.

She isn't the only one who has problems with the China study, but let's not dwell into authoritative science, there's no such thing, if you rely on that then your really wasting my time and yours.

If you read more into my post or done any research yourself, animal products promoting chronic disease is a broad statement, in itself is not true.

Since there's proteins and nutrients in animal products that can reverse liver fibrosis, are anti-inflammatory, and anti-cancer, that statement is clearly false.

I would argue plant vegetable oils like sunflower, soy, and canola, fried with animal meats cause much more of the problem influencing chronic disease.

Those vegetable oils on their own are already cancer promoting, and Western countries fry their meats in them majority of the time.

Just do a quick search on those oils and cancer. Soy, grain, and corn feed induce metabolic syndrome in animals and humans. Already posted studies.

I've already provided evidence that certain animal proteins can be cancer protective, if you disagree then find evidence of the contrary regarding that protein, otherwise your comment weighs nothing at all.

China study is also a epidemiological study, you can't draw conclusions or causation just associations with this type of study.


I'm not relying on Denise to do my thinking for me, she provided evidence and good reasoning that argues against Campbell interpretation of the data.

This is the original rationale of Campbell's interpretation of the data. He associated animal protein to cholesterol, and high cholesterol to increase cancer. And since plant based diets are lower in cholesterol, naturally in this line of logic animal foods which are higher in cholesterol increase cancer, although only in this context.

Whoever has studied cholesterol knows this to be false and to draw conclusions animal protein is bad through this interpretation is incredible weak.

There's no health risk with dietary cholesterol.

So come to your own conclusions, but ask yourself how you arrive to them, and what specific points in the China study you agree with and see if it holds true with metabolic controlled studies in vivo.

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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  johndoe1225 on Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:12 am

Hey Organism, not to press it, but what do you think about my issue with flaxseed meal that I mentioned?

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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  Organism on Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:53 am

johndoe1225 wrote:Hey Organism, not to press it, but what do you think about my issue with flaxseed meal that I mentioned?

Yeah I've read the same reasoning about flaxseeds phytoestrogens are protective against estrogen's, I haven't seen any studies that prove that, one of the studies I posted earlier says otherwise.

Dietary estrogens stimulate human breast cells to enter the cell cycle.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9168007

Chia seeds are probably a better option, but even then not sure what your goals are with the flax or chia. There are also anti-nutrients in flax, many seeds contain anti-nutrients, it's natures way to defend the seeds to ensure propagation and against digestion of prey, that includes us, humans. Cooking arguably what helped evolve our brains, deactivates some of these anti-nutrients, and problematic proteins.

The whole notion that plant-foods are safer to eat, is silly, when one studies plant pharmacology and herbalism you see there are many toxic/defensive components to plants because nature has given them protective qualities. For example, if you pick a fruit that is unripe the tree with release toxic substances or if the fruit hasn't had enough time to ripen the toxic substances will be left inside. It just shows we have to show an amount of respect to nature and we can't treat all plant foods the same. Another one is cashews are toxic raw. Same goes with animal foods, how we treat them or how they're raised changes their quality as you already know.

But that being said, fruits are one of the most safest foods to eat, because nature designed them for you to eat.

Some more studies to consider on flax

Maternal flaxseed diet during pregnancy or lactation increases female rat offspring's susceptibility to carcinogen-induced mammary tumorigenesis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17398067

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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  johndoe1225 on Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:01 am

Alright thanks for the info, and damn, I was really hoping to find something supporting flax lignans, I first became interested in them because of this article:

http://www.hairloss-research.org/Updateflaxmealcoconut&hairloss9-07.html

I guess you could call my diet modified Paleo, since I still eat beans...I love my broccoli rabe and beans, don't take that away from me Very Happy

I try to heavily limit nuts and stuff like that due to anti-nutrients though

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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  Hotspur on Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:54 am

Organism wrote:
Look at the data on real china study data, and the conversation between her and T. Colin Campbell.

China study is also a epidemiological study, you can't draw conclusions or causation just associations with this type of study.


I'm not relying on Denise to do my thinking for me, she provided evidence and good reasoning that argues against Campbell interpretation of the data.

It's difficult to know if you're being serious or just trolling. Let's work through this step by step. We'll begin with Minger and move onto your other claims. Minger 'borrowed' her work from researcher Plant Positive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeBmbJzKpt8

It's interesting you should cite her 'debate' with Campbell. Minger misinterpreted the raw data because she didn't understand the principle of 'biological plausibility' and the use of multi-variate correlations.

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/china-study-author-colin-campbell-slaps-down-critic-denise-minger.html

Minger is a Blogger. She isn't a Nutrition Scientist. That fact alone doesn't mean she's wrong. It does however mean her readers should do their due diligence rather than accept her claims at face value.

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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  Organism on Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:53 pm

Hotspur wrote:
Organism wrote:
Look at the data on real china study data, and the conversation between her and T. Colin Campbell.

China study is also a epidemiological study, you can't draw conclusions or causation just associations with this type of study.


I'm not relying on Denise to do my thinking for me, she provided evidence and good reasoning that argues against Campbell interpretation of the data.

It's difficult to know if you're being serious or just trolling. Let's work through this step by step. We'll begin with Minger and move onto your other claims. Minger 'borrowed' her work from researcher Plant Positive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeBmbJzKpt8

It's interesting you should cite her 'debate' with Campbell. Minger misinterpreted the raw data because she didn't understand the principle of 'biological plausibility' and the use of multi-variate correlations.

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/china-study-author-colin-campbell-slaps-down-critic-denise-minger.html

Minger is a Blogger. She isn't a Nutrition Scientist. That fact alone doesn't mean she's wrong. It does however mean her readers should do their due diligence rather than accept her claims at face value.

It's you I can't take seriously.

Because.

1.

You're still on the authoritative and credential issue, what's hilarious and ironic your posting Plant Positive to do your thinking for you, he himself is an ANONYMOUS BLOGGER.

Who unlike Denise Minger, can't even show his face to public to present any of his research or discussions. She has done more 'good' research herself and publicly presented to qualified scientist and healthcare professionals. Mean while Mr. Positive ( who sounds like he has had too much estrogen ) Can't even show his face or provide a real name...

And you want me to take his videos seriously over Denise?  Hilarious!

2.

That video is about Ancel Keys, not the China Study. So what was your point with sharing that? Ad-hominem that she apparently "steals" his work. This point is already a silly accusations to even take seriously. Thanks for wasting my time.  But I think you mean video 4.

I'll address this anyways.  There's nothing she stole. They have different stances on the subject besides high carb. So what was there to steal exactly? "Boohoo I had this idea to study this particular research first"

I can't believe you take this Plant Positive guy seriously. Honestly do you even hear what he's talking or saying? I don't blame you.

She clearly stated she has viewed his "work" and, although unimpressed felt inspired to do more research ( by the way his "work" is researching older studies, which are not his own and you can't steal,  since it's accessible to anyone who is willing to view it ).  Again their findings differ, except for the high-carb, which isn't even new! Haha He's just butthurt he didn't get attention for it. If he wanted some maybe he should I don't know.. Have the balls to show his face!

This PP guy has very little scientific value, I've watched his video's when he was Primitive Nutrition, a lot of the times he just post studies that can be clearly refuted with latest evidence and makes hour long videos with vacant accusations and ill logical ad-hominens.

But to refrain from doing that myself, Just look up the latest science on cholesterol, saturated fat, and poly-unsaturated fat, this easily debunks Plant Positive.

His arguments are very pro-heart-lipid-hypothesis and dietary-lipid theory which involve the vegetable oil a healthy replacement of saturated fat for heart disease.

News Flash, Vegetable oils cause heart disease and cancer.

Dietary fats: a new look at old data challenges established wisdom
http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i1512

"The researchers' controversial analysis published in 2013 also found that replacing saturated fats in the men's diets lowered their cholesterol but they were more likely to die from a heart attack than those from the control group who ate more saturated fat.

If blood cholesterol values are not a reliable indicator of the risk of heart disease, "then a careful review of the evidence that underpins dietary recommendations is warranted", Dr Veerman said."


Aka, those who replaced saturated fat with PUFA vegetable oils, died from heart attack more than those who ate saturated fat.


Anyways, so If he really thinks he brings up good points against Denise with her critic against the China Study, post the exact major points here or the paper that discredited her findings, because the ones I've seen on video 4 are not very good regarding more epidemiological studies, and issues on her stances on wheat which don't really matter in this discussion.


3.

So moving on,

Thanks for the vegan propaganda website, She already replied to his response, and is willing to debate more with Campbell but he pulled out when more details where involved.

https://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/16/the-china-study-my-response-to-campbell/


4.

Let's get to the main point.

You still haven't provided any controlled metabolic studies that all or most animal products (proteins to be specific) cause major diseases. The China Study isn't proof and never could be, but if you seriously think so please post the specific evidence from their studies that show it. Honestly I haven't seen anything.

Please debunk or provide evidence that glycine and whey which are animal proteins are not anti-cancer like the studies I recently posted suggest. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17430183

Because I think this will be a easier place to start ( for you ) instead of interpreting one of the biggest epidemiological studies, which again doesn't provide any scientific conclusions do to the nature of the study design.

"She doesn't understand 'biological plausibility'" is another ad-hominem with zero weight. Biological Plausibility doesn't mean causation, just plausibility.

It's people who think all animal protein is bad don't understand what biological plausibility means because nothing in the china study drives those conclusions, hence plausibility.

The establishment of his biological plausibility is from his laboratory work on rats, one of the popular ones being casein which was processed, powered and isolated from it's original source of food. ( Milk comes with nutrients like vitamin-a or whey protien which was found to be anti-cancer.) This is the the "biological plausibility" study thousands of people are relying on from the china study that "all animal protien is bad". And you're wondering if you can take me seriously? LOL.

I guarantee if you take isolated proteins or proponents from PLANT based foods and feed them to rats in specific dietary compositions unrealistic to a real diet you will find it would cause cancer.  Oh wait I already posted some of those.

The Effects of Soy Supplementation on Gene Expression in Breast Cancer: A Randomized Placebo-Controlled Study
http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/106/9/dju189.abstract?sid=21d00187-92b7-49e2-a644-b03fb7b82c93

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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  john3333 on Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:40 pm

Organism wrote:

Please debunk or provide evidence that glycine and whey which are animal proteins are not anti-cancer like the studies I recently posted suggest. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17430183
Whey and animal proteins have methionine, which accelerates aging and promotes cancer. Methionine and cysteine are both sulfur-containing amino acids.
It is a complete and unquestionable fact that protein increases IGF-1, the cancer growth-promoting hormone.
Whey's high amount of the sulfur-containing amino acid cysteine will lead to the creation of hydrogen sulfide in the colon via protein fermentation. Whey protein rots in the colon. We've all heard of resistant starch's benefits, but most of us have not heard of resistant protein. With resistant protein, the creation of hydrogen sulfide and ammonia is inevitable. Even without the resistant protein, protein putrefaction is unavoidable since many people have protease deficiencies or don't chew their food enough.
We've known for a long time that protein restriction increases longevity. The people who live the longest eat the least protein. If you want sulfur to increase glutathione, get it from cruciferous vegetables or MSM, which won't create hydrogen sulfide in the colon.
If you must use protein, you should use something from a longevity-maximizing plant, like peas. Pea protein has lower methionine, leucine, and other amino acids that have been shown to have benefit when restricted. Peas, grains, legumes, are naturally high in glycine without the addition of a processed nutrientless food like gelatin, which is known to cause side effects. Supplements like gelatin are often contaminated with heavy metals and mycotoxins.
Pea protein isn't as high in cysteine, if that's what you want, but if you eat a balanced diet of fruits and vegetables only, you will have ZERO problems getting enough cysteine for glutathione.
The Okinawans and blue zones eat low amounts of animal products and are living long.

In summary, eat cruciferous vegetables and MSM instead of whey to increase glutathione. Protein causes aging.

Organism wrote:
I guarantee if you take isolated proteins or proponents from PLANT based foods and feed them to rats in specific dietary compositions unrealistic to a real diet you will find it would cause cancer.  Oh wait I already posted some of those.

The Effects of Soy Supplementation on Gene Expression in Breast Cancer: A Randomized Placebo-Controlled Study
http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/106/9/dju189.abstract?sid=21d00187-92b7-49e2-a644-b03fb7b82c93
This is a study on soy protein. It's not a whole food. It's similar to the situation with beta carotene -eating carrots is beneficial, but taking a beta-carotene supplement isn't. Soy is a superfood when eaten in its whole form. Many soy foods like tempeh and natto have been known to be extremely beneficial. Natto contains k2, nattokinase, phytoestrogens, and other nutrients essential for growing hair. Nattokinase is one of the most important enzymes for regrowing hair.
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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  Hotspur on Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:44 pm

Organism. You don't mind citing bloggers unless they're vegan do you? No matter if they've tried to plagiarize another persons work or if their 'insights' are infact a work of fiction. Positive is wrong? Prove it.

Plant Positive's video series features The China Study and undermines the credibility of your star witness. I want you to dispute the following errors Minger made (You chose to cite her not me):

Minger's review of The China Study dismissed the relationship between fat and increased rates of breast cancer. She attributed this to 'hormone injected livestock'. Can you point us to citations that support her claim?

Minger's work is based on TCS data outlined in mongraphs released in 1990. This work was subsequently updated. In short, Minger's findings were based on incomplete and outdated data. Please dispute this.

Minger's work doesn't make the distinction between multivariate analysis and univariate analysis. She cites bogus charts to illustrate her points and only later addresses the issue.


Finally, because we both know you haven't read the book, The China Study isn't actually a study at all. It's a compilation of research of which the epidemiological data of China is just 1 facet.

Please don't use diversionary tactics and answer questions with questions. Let's work through your claims one step at a time. I want the readers of this board to benefit from our debate.

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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  Organism on Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:19 pm

Hotspur wrote:Organism. You don't mind citing bloggers unless they're vegan do you? No matter if they've tried to plagiarize another persons work or if their 'insights' are infact a work of fiction. Positive is wrong? Prove it.

Plant Positive's video series features The China Study and undermines the credibility of your star witness. I want you to dispute the following errors Minger made (You chose to cite her not me):

Minger's review of The China Study dismissed the relationship between fat and increased rates of breast cancer. She attributed this to 'hormone injected livestock'. Can you point us to citations that support her claim?

Minger's work is based on TCS data outlined in mongraphs released in 1990. This work was subsequently updated. In short, Minger's findings were based on incomplete and outdated data. Please dispute this.

Minger's work doesn't make the distinction between multivariate analysis and univariate analysis. She cites bogus charts to illustrate her points and only later addresses the issue.


Finally, because we both know you haven't read the book, The China Study isn't actually a study at all. It's a compilation of research of which the epidemiological data of China is just 1 facet.

Please don't use diversionary tactics and answer questions with questions. Let's work through your claims one step at a time. I want the readers of this board to benefit from our debate.

Oh wow you're still on the whole "But Denise Minger said".

What diversionary tactics? Honestly what specific diversionary tactics are you referring to? I'd like to know so you can point them out and see if they have nothing to do with the discussion.

Do you see how you're arguing on a loop without evidence? Classic case of can't think for myself syndrome.

The main point I've been responding against is the accusations of "all animal protein is toxic and causes major chronic diseases." What was your point ? I've begun to think you don't even have one, since you're relying on the china study so much, it must be your only source of scientific reasoning, along with plant positive videos.

And I already proven plant positive is wrong with many of claims defending lipid-heart analysis. That's his major theory to rely on against animal foods.

You are ignoring all my points which are completely valid. Look outside the china study, and yes I do know it's compilation of epidemiological research, no where did I write it was just one study.

The major point being most of it is epidemiological. You cannot conclude causation with epidemiological research. So get over it. I already posted studies that prove that proteins from animals are the opposite of toxic.

What evidence have you posted? Nothing. Just words coming out of plant positives mouth about Minger.

If you think otherwise, you are beyond help, or please post the studies that say other wise.

Still waiting on the rebuttal to the studies on my first post in this thread. If you have nothing to comment on them, it's obvious Campbell generalization of 'all animal protein is toxic' is false.

"Minger's review of The China Study dismissed the relationship between fat and increased rates of breast cancer. She attributed this to 'hormone injected livestock'.

Also Why would I have to dispute this, it's not a fact.  Keyword here is relationship. So You're asking me to dispute the association with eating high fat" and breast cancer?

By the way, she can attribute anything she wants if it's logical, she said herself shes not claiming any conclusions, unlike the vegans an vegetarians who rely on the china study (book) as scientific dogma.

I would argue that a high-fat diet in PUFA rich oils would be associated with breast cancer as an explanation, and there's plenty of biological plausibility for that. But What does this have to do with animal protein? Or whatever point your making?

But I'm assuming we're talking about animal fat now. The composition of animal fat (most domesticated factory farmed) are high in omega-6 and a lower ratio of omega-3 plant oils because of their feed & most damaging, the oils used to cook them in which are already known to cause cancer. I've already mentioned this before, I hope you can put 1 + 1 together.

This is why The China study can't draw conclusions because it can't answer those details. Which are completely valid and important points. You definitely cannot come to any conclusions of the dietary fat and breast cancer.

Most Cooking oil used is Plant-based Vegetable oil's, which turn carcinogenic in heat due to it's chemical structure being poly-unsaturated carbon bounds.

Adipose Tissue Omega-3 and Omega-6 Fatty Acid Content and Breast Cancer in the EURAMIC Study
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/147/4/342.short

Dietary fat and colon cancer: modulation of cyclooxygenase-2 by types and amount of dietary fat during the postinitiation stage of colon carcinogenesis.
http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/9270014
The data suggest that HFCO (Corn oil) may promote colon tumorigenesis by up-regulating the COX-2 expression, whereas HFFO (fish oil) may exert its antitumor effect by inhibiting the COX-2 expression.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11981884/Cooking-with-vegetable-oils-releases-toxic-cancer-causing-chemicals-say-experts.html


"Minger's work is based on TCS data outlined in mongraphs released in 1990. This work was subsequently updated. In short, Minger's findings were based on incomplete and outdated data. Please dispute this. "

Which specific data are you referring to and why is it important in this discussion?

I've already addressed the "multivariate analysis and univariate analysis" is based of Campbell's own interpretations of the data. His interpretations aren't accurate in his own biologically reasoning, therefor many of his analysis have little weight.

Example with his multivariate analysis is based off s his own interpretation associating high intake of dietary cholesterol with disease. "Eating foods that contain any cholesterol above 0 mg is unhealthy." -- T. Colin Campbell, The China Study.

Research cholesterol and disease.

Lack of an association or an inverse association between low-density-lipoprotein cholesterol and mortality in the elderly: a systematic review
http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/6/6/e010401.full

The science behind the new dietary guidelines report
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/the-science-behind-the-new-dietary-guidelines-report/
Cholesterol, like eggs—long seen as unhealthy—are now considered OK. That’s because recent research shows only a weak link between cholesterol in the diet and blood cholesterol, and moderate egg consumption

The Cholesterol Myth
http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol/

Enjoy,

Honestly if you're still bent up about the china study, and have something against Minger's work then email her. I'm not here just to analysis specific points on the china study that develop falty correlations. (Even though I've posted more about the subject than you )

I've already mentioned the major issues concerning the China Study, and you still haven't provided any rebuttal or evidence of your own.

I've provided other studies with a controlled settings which say more than the china study yet you fail to comment on, but go on and mention more about Denise Minger.

Honestly these points you're asking me to dispute just tell me I'm wasting my time, and you really don't have anything to say.

You still haven't posted any valid points, zero. Stop wasting your own time and mine if you're not willing to comment on the points and studies I brought up. You still haven't provided any evidence besides "please dispute this xyz claim which has nothing to do with your argument".

If you can't understand this, don't even bother.

But again, draw your own conclusions.

Apologies if I'm sounding harsh, it's just in my perspective theirs obvious reasoning, and I haven't seen much of yours.

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Re: Official Vegan Thread

Post  Hotspur on Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:54 pm

Whasamatter Organism. Losing your religion?

While this point may pass many casual readers by, the more observant will note Organism sidestepped my questions, pivoted to other questions and cited other studies. This is how politicians behave.

We can methodically break down your points but that doesn't work for you. I understand why you're trying to diversify but it doesn't wash. Let's both accept your citation of Minger is a bit embarrassing and move onto another issue.

Let me quote the following paragraph. It reaches to the heart of your ignorance here:

The major point being most of it is epidemiological. You cannot conclude causation with epidemiological research. So get over it. I already posted studies that prove that proteins from animals are the opposite of toxic.

You fundamentally misunderstand The China Study. Please refer to 'Biological Plausibility'. That is epidemiological data was tested against existing research highlighting an association between animal products and disease.

You've written alot of things I could correct. I know Ravnskov's 'Cholesterol Myth' well. Since this is the opening salvo for many cholesterol skeptics, I think that's an efficient place to start.

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