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What if the flat earth returned ?

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What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  cdto2012 on Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:29 am

I think that some of you remember the recent thread about "David Wolfe thinks the Earth is Flat' .  It was deleted by one of the moderators, but the admin moderator thought that exploration of science subjects was a fine thing to pursue and post on this forum.

I wrote up some reasons for why it is relevant to challenge assumptions and refine and define models with logic, documentation, measurements, and relevant  examples. It is a fun exercise in the scientific process, much like we use to pursue methods of regrow modeling and processes.  I do have the transcripts of the things that I posted with quotes and questions from other included. If people enjoy such subjects I can post my new thoughts and past summaries.  

I have recently hosted my own new forum after the deletion and loss of all the group contributions here.  For me scientific exploration needs to continue unhindered by those that are wanting to control and censor it.

So lets see if there is continued interest in such subjects here. I estimated that the original thread was getting over 100 reads a day.

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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  long hair on Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:13 am

just in case these thread locked you can go here

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/
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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  MikeGore on Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:02 am

I do want to give credit to those fellow open-minded people for being open-minded and challenging the norms. I wouldn't want to ridicule such believers since we need people like this. But the flat earth theory is nonsense. The hollow earth theory on the other hand is absolute reality. So still a sphere but hollow.

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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  cdto2012 on Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:44 am

I like hollow earth theory also. We can have some real fun and chat about Admiral Byrd, operation high jump, and the Nazi bases in Antarctica. I studied with a person that could duplicate the electrogravitic scalar wave effects and was invited to work with John Searl, producing effects similiar to the Vrill aircraft propulsion systems.

A video with subtiles, but worth the watch for something to wonder about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwUpPwyyvLw

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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  sanderson on Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:26 pm

the earth is actually triangle shaped
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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  cdto2012 on Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:13 pm

I will repost a bit of the scientific inquiry from the last thread,  so new people do not think this thread is only about some form of foolish rebel scientific anarchy.

I have copies of most of my postings about the flat non rotating earth theory. The first inquiry regarded the speed of rotation of the surface of the earth- near 1000 miles per hour,  and why we do not face 1000 mph head winds.  This would be caused by the air doing as air is observed every day,   being stationary until moved by pressure. Even a fan moves air directionally due to the difference of airspeeds on the top and bottom of the blade,  not because friction pushes air in one direction. Friction only deflects air in circular turbulence.

The repost in response to a question :

With your example of being inside and airplane,  that is a shielded enclosed area.  The surface of the earth rotating against still air is not shielded and we should expect vary fast moving headwinds.  
"The model that you propose can be thought of much like a person standing on top of a long train near the last cars. The train is moving near 1000 miles per hour. Does friction explain that the person would not feel any head winds and that the air moving past would be accelerated to 1000 mph ?  Would all of the air above the train for miles be also accelerated in the same direction?  This is absurd. Since when does friction bring airspeed up to an exact matching speed of the surface?  That is what you are proposing.  Even if the train was super wide and encircled the globe, and had been traveling for billions of years as you say,  you would still have heavy oncoming winds when displacing air.

The wind effect that you might feel from a train passing by is from air being displaced and a vacuum being filled. Not because the air around the train were convinced to move/synch with the train"


I detailed previously about the absurd model that air would be locked into geosynchronous vertical columns to keep it stationary with the rotation velocity. Air is not fixed to specific points on the earth.

The wind effect that you might feel from a train passing by is from air being displaced and a vacuum being filled. Not because the air around the train were convinced to move/synch with the train

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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  cdto2012 on Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:39 am

Well there seems to be enough daily reads, so I will repost the second inquiry regarding the curvature of the earth.

A slightly comical video, but deals well with the curvature of the earth. Basically over 100 miles the vertical drop if on a round earth is over 6273 feet. This is absurd to consider in reality. This would mean that the far shore of a 100 mile lake or canal would be below you 6,000 feet. This is like a mountain height. The video shows a 100+ mile bridge over water, it is not dropping 6,000 feet from end to end. Also to see any feature at 100 mile distance, the height of the object would need to be over 6,000 feet high, just to see the peak of it.

in minute 17 they cover the curvature of earth over miles distance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf7J8sr8NXQ

calculator of curvature

https://dizzib.github.io/earth/curve-calc/?d0=100&h0=6&unit=imperial
( the H1 is the foot drop vertical- the person stands on the left of the diagram )

another video that in the first few minutes talks about how engineers never calculate for the curvature of the earth for large projects

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5i_iDyUTCg

Curvature is a simple measurement that can be done with lasers. Being off measurement 6,000 feet in elevation at the other side of a bridge is a huge problem. Either extreme curvature is real or not. Also the water level (sea-level)would have to bend just as much- there is no measurable bending of sea level either.

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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  cdto2012 on Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:44 am

Here is another set of video statements from NASA and astronauts, about how the Van Allen belts are too much radiation for humans to travel through near earth space currently. When the moon mission went to the moon they would have been exposed for over 48 hours with no mentioned sufficient radiation shielding- something to this day we have not developed.

brief intro with links below video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdO1X8nobRY

space station interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51DED8dcNkA

complete nasa interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlXG0REiVzE&t=331s

minute 3:30

funny interview where the guy "in space" says they are filming in the USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp9Y8I6v_Ds

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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  cdto2012 on Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:13 pm

Well it is the weekend and enough people are reading the thread, I will continue with the other main point of inquiry.

If I went up in a hot air balloon 100+ feet free floating (no wind) for a few hours, and the earth surface was rotating below at near 1,000 miles per hour; why do I not come down thousands of miles away?
Either the air is locked to a specific point on the surface vertically for miles up ( propelling me sideways in perfect synch) or the earth is not rotating at 1000 mph.


Repost:
gravity does not propel you sideways at 1,000 miles an hour, it simply draws you towards earth vertically. As I wrote before, gravity does not lock air into vertical columns that propel objects in flight horizontally at near 1000 mph.
If I had some imagined force of gravity that tied me ( in a floating balloon) to a fixed point on earth like a rubber band, then there would be all kinds of new things, like needing massive force to move through fixed vertical barriers or even fight to move away from a fixed imagined location.

Can you show me a published document that shows that gravity locks floating objects ( objects defying gravity) into directional sideways movement of 1000 mph ? The air would have to be absurdly thick to transfer such force, or gravity redefined as the force that causes sideways directional movement in the direction of the rotation of the earth.

Wind blows in all directions, and is not fixed to any point on the surface, this is obvious and observable. It does not transfer surface speed to remote objects.

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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  rofl on Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:25 am

omg, take a damn science class already, the atmosphere is one with the planet, just like the ocean, they spin with the planet. hence why objects burn when transitioning from in space to inside the atmosphere. and anyway , just because you dont understand something does not mean its a big conspiracy. but i suspect you are just taking the piss to stir up shit. redirect your curiousity towards mpb, preferably something other than that dt nonsense.
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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  cdto2012 on Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:57 am

rofl wrote:omg, take a damn science class already, the atmosphere is one with the planet, just like the ocean, they spin with the planet. hence why objects burn when transitioning from in space to inside the atmosphere.  

The atmosphere is not the same or one with the planet or surface.  Planes do not fly through  the dirt,  there is a huge difference in density and energy transfer attributes.  Gasses are not tethered to fixed locations on the surface.

What you observe about spaceships passing through the atmosphere and heating up because of the air has so much friction turbulence -- basically enforces the point I was making.  


The powered spaceships can come in around 17,000 mph. My point is that high speeds between surfaces (earth or ship) and normal air that only is moved by pressure differences or deflection,  creates friction, drag, and rotary turbulence.  High speed surfaces never cause air to match the surface speed resulting in no drag effect.

To your point, air has density,  but that does not propel it to match the surface speed of a high seed object or make it like a viscous glue that travels in only one direction.

I hope you were not trying to say that the heat was caused by the high speed one directional horizontal winds ?  That would be embarrassing and would cause aircraft to use much more fuel to travel against this direction. The heat and high speeds are caused by the vertical descent speeds deflecting air.

Are you really saying that all the air molecules above my house up to 100,000+ feet,  are locked above my house and traveling far faster than 1,000 mph to keep up with my house for the next thousands of years ?

here is the effects of winds as they pass over the earths surface, to consider the surface as the moving force consider the previous long train example. Either way it is just turbulence and disorderly direction.




If the oceans were rotating with a spinning earth there would be massive bulges of water near the equator due to water also not being attached to a specific location lock vertically.  The equator spins a few hundred miles faster than the poles of lesser radius. Water always is effected  by centrifugal force, gravity does not  propel things horizontally.

Even momentum slows with time.  The water would have to be observed constantly being propelled by the surface of the earth in one direction. This would leave eddies, and crazy lopsided tides.

Like a huge ship surface, if never makes the water travel at the same speed and direction. There is only short lived deflection and turbulence. I am a ultra light and para glider pilot , wind and surface interaction modeling must be very accurate to stay alive.

I know that this is the subject that people love to hate.  That is why I enjoy the science of it.  I realize that the flat earth model is an  unbearable conclusion for most.  It just entertains me to see what unscientific absurdities people will make up along the way when comparing measurable, observable, and repeatable evidence.

Last time people offered the fable that billions and billions of years ago the rocks farted out the atmosphere.  Since then the blended mystical laws of physics have kept the atmosphere in perfect synchronized speed  ever since. Ok show me the defined laws of physics that we can observe now, that cause the atmosphere to geosynchronously lock to a fixed place on the earth. News flash,  air moves in all directions.  

I also enjoy this to see how steadily people think that legends of the past, assumptions, opinions,  and contrived modeling are mistaken for scientific evidence.  Yes it is very useful for sorting out the science of hair regrow.

At some point people will ask themselves who in these inquiries is dealing with measurable, repeatable, documented and observable evidence; and who presents a bunch of assumed mystical physics with none of the aforelisted attributes.

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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  sdguy on Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:02 am

You're wasting your time, ROFL. As intelligent as he tries to sound, this guy really has no idea how any of this stuff works. Take the following:

Here is another set of video statements from NASA and astronauts, about how the Van Allen belts are too much radiation for humans to travel through near earth space currently. When the moon mission went to the moon they would have been exposed for over 48 hours with no mentioned sufficient radiation shielding- something to this day we have not developed.

The Apollo astronauts were actually in the Van Allen belts for only around 3.5 hours each way and the trajectories were designed to take them through the areas with the fewest charged particles. Between the exposure time and shielding the astronauts received a fairly small dose of radiation, less than NRC allows a radiation worker to be exposed to in a year.

He honestly doesn't seem to understand any of the very basic concepts involved in all of this, so the wacky stuff he floats out there shouldn't be much of a surprise. I told him via PM that he could solve this riddle by floating a camera up into orbit, as has been done by many amateur scientists for only around $500, but he doesn't seem interested in being the guy who finally exposes this dastardly lie. Or maybe he doesn't want the MiBs to disappear him. Whatever the reason, just treat him as a sideshow.

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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  rofl on Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:06 pm

all u do is deflect and go off on massive rubbish tangents to try and sound smart. all u do is embarrass yourself, but i guess negative attention is still attention.
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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  cdto2012 on Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:18 pm

rofl wrote:all u do is deflect and go off on massive rubbish tangents to try and sound smart.  all u do is embarrass yourself, but i guess negative attention is still attention.

Thank you for your unmeasurable and unscientific reply.  Again you demonstrate my point about people considering their opinions more important than offering scientific examples.

I did add a few other scientific examples to save you from writing another theory on the level of - heated space shuttles show that the earth and air are one in the same.

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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  cdto2012 on Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:32 pm

sdguy wrote:

Here is another set of video statements from NASA and astronauts, about how the Van Allen belts are too much radiation for humans to travel through near earth space currently. When the moon mission went to the moon they would have been exposed for over 48 hours with no mentioned sufficient radiation shielding- something to this day we have not developed.

The Apollo astronauts were actually in the Van Allen belts for only around 3.5 hours each way and the trajectories were designed to take them through the areas with the fewest charged particles. Between the exposure time and shielding the astronauts received a fairly small dose of radiation, less than NRC allows a radiation worker to be exposed to in a year.

This is a scientific and documentable response.  It seems that I was wrong about the amount of time the astronauts spent in the belt. The belts fluctuate in size and intensity,  thank you for the correction.

I did present the video from NASA,  and based the content of the claim on what was said from the representatives along with the space station crew.

  "As we get further away from Earth, we will pass through the Vann Allan Belts, an area of dangerous radiation. Radiation like this can harm the guidance systems, onboard computers, or other electronics on Orion. Naturally, we have to pass through this danger zone twice, once up and once back. But Orion has protection, shielding will be put to the test as the vehicle cuts through the waves of radiation. Sensors aboard will record radiation levels for scientists to study. We must solve these challenges before we send people through this region of Space."

It is not that the humans would be killed/sickened by the radiation,  it is that electronics are effected by the fields and until proper shielding can be developed and tested,  they can't send humans  past near earth orbit. Perhaps the old electronics were not effected by ionizing radiation,  but I doubt this, electron flow is  always the core of electronics and EMP shielding and technology has only gotten better over the years.  

Anyhow radiation exposure is a complex subject, and something that most people do not have an extensive background in.  So I am content to rest that evidence as basically corrected and possibly irrelevant with some lingering strange statements from the official speakers of the space station and NASA.  

With this, I will move on to the things I can talk about simply and clearly. No need to send up a camera to high atmosphere searching for curvature. I can show you videos at 100,000 feet, the atmosphere blurs the shape of the earth mountains, ect, and it still looks pretty flat without a fisheye lens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfUbBn7u2d0

 Anybody that has driven up a mountain or  been in a plane at  altitude of even a few thousand feet can consider the obvious that I already mentioned.  One normally quickly has visibility over land exceeding 100 miles.  If the drop off curvature  of the earth was really 6,000 feet per 100 miles, this is drastic curvature.  It is easy to see a 6,000 foot valley or mountain even if the slope is gradual from the air.  A highway or a bridge would be visible bend if over 100 miles it dropped off 6,000 feet. The calculations adjust with observer altitude, but my point is that you can stay near the ground to more accurately measure curvature.

At 200 miles visibility, the horizontal dropoff is 25,636  feet, getting near the elevation of mount Everest.

I was based in  the Hawaiian Islands. The miles between Kauai and Oahu is about 80-90 miles.  It is agreed that on clear days from ground level you can see Kauai from Oahu. . If curvature was true,  you could only see elevations above 5,000 feet. The highest peak on Oahu is

Kaʻala or Mount Kaʻala or is the highest mountain on the island of Oahu, at 4,025 feet (1,227 m)



view from Kauai
https://www.google.co.th/search?q=can+you+see+kuai+from+oahu+%3F&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-ab&gws_rd=cr&ei=rcqWWMLuDIzZvgTYmbXgBg

This is simple easy science anyone can do.  People can see between the islands with the naked eye. If you use binoculars or a telescope/ or a source laser point,  it is clear that you can see distant objects located at less than 5,000 foot elevation. Does this mean that curvature modeling is a lie ?  Yes.

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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  cdto2012 on Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:11 am

Since SDguy has joined the conversation,  I have roughly rephrased his posts from the previous thread.  Out of respect for his continued interest in this subject on the forum and extensive questions in private messaging,  I will repost what I have of his original thoughts on the debate for accuracy. They are in the context of my replies. I will color code his quotes. I really do not post to this thread to be divisive.  I just think it is fun to have a lively scientific debate of substance.  Sorry if at times the content gets a bit repetitive,  I am just trying to catch up the archive a bit to give the subject a record that can be given a rest.

"
So billions and billions of years ago when the Earth formed it was rotating on its axis, let's say it was moving at the same 1000mph as it is today "


You start out with some vague assumptions that are speculative theory..  not repeatable,  you were not there, and unobservable.

" These gases left the ground traveling at 1000mph, just like the planet, and because there's no friction in a vacuum, they continued at that pace. Normally they would fly off into space but gravity held them to Earth so they kept spinning and spinning. One might think that things could get out of sync over billions of years but the friction of the planet against the atmosphere, including all of those very large mountain ranges, keeps the atmosphere moving right along with the planet."

This story is a complete fable.  How do you know the exact process of things that happened billions of years ago ?  Is this measurable,  repeatable, or observable science? It is not even a reasonable explanation for what we can observe with real science now.

To clarify a few of the absurd assumptions I will add some details.

You claim that the gasses were released billions of years ago into a vaccum.  Since air was released from rocks traveling 1000 mph, they have remained at that exact same speed for billions of years. So you are claiming that the air for miles vertically is locked above the same rocks they were released from... ridiculous.

Next there is no longer a vacuum anywhere near the  rotating surface, and unless air is permanently locked in vertical columns by the mysteries of new definitions of friction, gravity, and mountain turbines,  this is wild unsupported speculation.  Real science flash -  air/wind is a low density mass,  it moves freely in any direction and is not attracted to any specific point on the earths surface.  Even if air was moving in currents as the jet streams do or prevailing currents do,  they move in many directions,  not just the direction of the earth.

Air is not locked to specific surface points or vertically.  Friction does not deflect air to move with the surface moving at 1000 mph at the exact speed.  Mountains do not act as fan blades, and force air to travel horizontal to the surface. Inertia and momentum does not make a low density substance like air stay moving for billions of years. Gravity does not make air travel at right angles to the downward force of vertical descent. Friction slows air down and makes rotary turbulence,  it does not keep air perfectly calm and in sync for billions of years.

I am an ultralight and para glider pilot.  If I cannot model wind currents, air density, pressure differentials, turbulence zones,  rotors,  and object wakes perfectly I die.  Your made up story is unsupportable with documentation, physics,  or observable reality.

I am not a person asking others to reach wild speculative theories about the shape of the earth.  If you can come up with valid scientific documented points that are observable and measurable,  I will gladly say, thank you for sharing a good point and perspective.  Instead I keep getting people wanting to redefine physics to fit some made up scenario ,   based on assumptions they insist are very true defined facts.  No they are assumptions based on flimsy logic and imagination.


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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  Palcom on Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:21 pm

The Flat Earth theory is embarrassing and a supreme misunderstanding of physics is required to entertain it.
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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  cdto2012 on Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:09 pm

Wonderful, we finally have somebody who claims to have the correct and supreme understanding of physics. Really hope he is not just another scientific fail who offers baseless opinions based on zero evidence or documentation. The topics are few and basic, show measurable, observable, repeatable, principles of science that explain rotation and curvature as previously inquired.

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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  long hair on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:29 pm

WERNHER VON BRAUN

1912 - 1977

PSALMS 19


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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  rofl on Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:06 am

can u prove you are not a turkey?
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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  Palcom on Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:54 am

There is zero evidence for Special Relativity? If you are interested in Physics, then I suggest you study it.
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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  cdto2012 on Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:17 am

rofl wrote:can u prove you are not a turkey?

Well I can tell the scholars are getting bored and confused  from lack of content to answer with observable testing methods.

Lets turn to the thermosphere with some questions and some answers/debunking evidence included.

https://aplanetruth.info/2015/04/15/30-how-do-satellites-survive-4000f-degree-heat-in-space/

The highly diluted gas in this layer can reach 2,500 °C (4,530 °F) during the day

The sun is the source of the thermal radiation.  And as on earth,  it the air is one temperature, anything black is far more heated. Take a look at the solar panels on the space station. They are black and

"  The solar panels which adjorn these machines would barely function even if they could keep it together long enough. A British company found a drop of 1.1% of peak output for every increase in degrees Celsius of photovoltaic solar panels once the panels reached 42°C, and of course at 1414°C silicon actually melts. But wait… the Hubble Telescope and satellites uses gallium arsenide instead of silicon which melts at an even lower temperature of 1238°C.  "



The point is that even with reflective shielding on the rest of the ship, having many huge burning connected panels connected is a massive influx of metal melting temperatures. Of course, at the extreme air temps,  the black panels would quickly melt due to the normal absorption  properties of black surfaces being many times that of air molecules.

Even with "cooling" radiator surfaces, a vacuum reduces the heat transmission, and the air is already super hot.  Just like a black steel slab in the sun on earth, the back/underneath is radiating off the heat,  but the surface is still extremely hot.
vacuum reducing cooling effects- long video but covers some about the thermosphere
https://youtu.be/XUNuYRti7CM

So now for the physics of the debunkers,  fairly well presented, but I still have a problem with their conclusions.

https://www.metabunk.org/how-satellites-survive-the-temperature-of-the-thermosphere.t6930/

"  If I hold a needle for 10 seconds in a flame, it will reach a high temperature. If I heat up a kettle with a little water with the same flame, it will hardly rise in temperature after 10 seconds. Why? Because you need more heat (energy) to raise the temperature (the average kinetic energy) of the much more molecules of the kettle+water than you need for the few molecules that are in the needle.
So the radiation flux of the sun (1,4 kW/m2) will easily heat up the few molecules that are behind every m2 when it reaches the thermosphere, but behind a m2 satellite there are a billion times more molecules to heat up. Apart from the fact that the satellite will reflect most of the incoming radiation. "

A fair piece of logic.  Does this really hold up to observable reality though?  Here on earth, if you get the air up to 100 degrees by sunlight (actually it is more from ocean temps - making the heating of air alone more drastic) ;
a black steel slab is going get so hot that it could burn your skin and fry food.

The space station is  exposed to unfiltered sun that heats air thousands of times hotter than here on earth,  and for more hours a day.  Due to weight restrictions, the metals are thin and lightweight, much like a black roof in the sun. There is plenty of heat radiation at sea level,  in space with multipliers of 1000,  this is extreme metal melting temperatures.

An additional neutral science article detailing the extreme temps.
https://scied.ucar.edu/shortcontent/thermosphere-overview

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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  cdto2012 on Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:12 am

I will share a quick allegory to share why I think the flat earth topic is a favorite to love to hate.

There were some European explorers that met up with some African tribesmen while colonizing Africa years ago. They were taken to the chief and asked to explain where they were from in simple language. They said it got very cold, and the rains turned white. They went on about other things different, and the tribes people tried to imagine these strange things.

The chiefs and elders of the tribe were deciding if they were lying or trustworthy. Then the explorers pointed to an elephant and said that the waters got so hard that you could walk an elephant on the waters. That was the fatal mistake, the conclusion was too absurd to further consider any more claims.

There is a saying about evidence, that it is time to walk the elephant on water..

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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:04 am


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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

Post  rofl on Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:28 pm

apply your sudden desire for scientific process to DT theory . lets hear the deflection now.
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Re: What if the flat earth returned ?

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