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Proof that DHT is a secondary factor in MPB

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Proof that DHT is a secondary factor in MPB

Post  Benjamin Button on Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:24 pm

Ok so the whole theory that male pattern baldness is soley driven by DHT is based on eunuchs and pseudohermaphradites.... does any body know any of those? ....no, didn't think so...

So what if we found a eunuch who went bald?? that would completely disprove the DHT being the DRIVING FORCE of baldness theory...

I put it to you that if there were a shit ton of eunuchs in the world, eventually we WOULD SEE balding eunuchs, admittedly a tiny percentage. but this exception would show that something else is driving the condition...


>>> Now where is that proof I promised....?

There are a type of "eunuch" like this that do suffer male pattern baldness.... Prepubescent GIRLS and boys, clinically diagnosed with ANDROGENETIC ALOPECIA.....

this proves that despite the absence of testostertone and dht, that some other biological force is responsible for bodies failure to regenerate the hair organ

....I'm gonna say that again because its so important, under normal conditions the hair organ regenerates over and over again.... In male pattern baldness hair organ fails to regenerate even in prepubescent girls (No DHT present) with this clinically diagnosed condition...

and the study only reported kids brought to a clinic by parents, imagine all the parents deflecting this issue by saying "little mary has naturally very fine hair", or a "naturally high hairline"...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15787828

____________________________________________________________________________________

And then there's the fact that castrating a male will not regenerate the hair organ, despite 0 dht being present.

Old men with the most severe baldness make up the majority of bald cases, despite very low DHT, a point that the famous eunich theory doctor hamilton acknowledged in later life, admitting he had doubts about his own theory..

also the immunodeficient mice who can regenerate a transplanted male pattern baldness follicle, despite dht presence.

i have other examples like a steroid user I know who went from norwood 3 vertex to norwood 1. he wasn't going to bald naturally. So when he went off cycle the dht strain was gone. likely he fell in the spectrum of men who have this capacity to regenerate, but he pumped a shit ton of steroids into his body making dht reveal the vulnerability of all men to DHT.

______________________________________________________________________________

Now, I want you guys to really think about the things I'm saying....

DHT is a potentially harmful to ALL FOLLICLES and that's fine. The body should be able to handle it.
When I say ALL I mean ALL, I mean the horse shoe will eventually wear down to barely anything, it will be like a little thin wispy band in the most extreme cases, not full horseshoe any more, and if you lived long enough it would all go.
All women's follicles to in old age, and even so called Norwood 1s without the male pattern baldness "gene"
They will all bald eventually.

Because baldness is not just about DHT, it is about the organs ability to regenerate. DHT is an important hormone for men". This heredity male pattern baldness is not a DHT problem, it's a problem first with inflammation and regeneration, and DHT is like a car that crashes into a pile up on the free way....

One day in the future, this will be obvious to all,
You guys screaming about DHT are the equivalent of doctors performing labotomies to fix people's mental problems in the 1960s.
You have no sense of nuance, and are so emotionally invested in convincing yourself it's ok to chemically castrate yourself that you won't hear anything else.


Last edited by Benjamin Button on Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Proof that DHT is a secondary factor in MPB

Post  Benjamin Button on Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:25 pm

I have outlined in various threads already that DHT while being necessary for the progression of male pattern hairloss, is only part of the story. In this thread I would like to investigate the link between the immune system and the phenomenon of pattern hair loss. If you have an insight or a counter argument please contribute, but It would be great if we could avoid dumping abuse/spam here without at least some degree of rational discourse beforehand.

For starters, lets look at the DHT theory origin:
> eunich don't go bald.
> eunich will bald if injected with testosterone.
Furthermore:
> 5 alpha reductase deficient males have testosterone but no DHT, yet don't go bald

so... here we need to say that DHT is necessary for baldness to occur, but it is an error to assume that DHT is the direct cause, even is those susceptible to baldness.
again, just because DHT is necessary, does not mean that it's presence automatically causes male pattern baldness.

"you need the football to score a touchdown, but having the football does not mean you will."


Balding men have normal levels of serum DHT. So It's not that you are overproducing it. Some women with normal hormone levels develop Androgenetic Alopecia.
And of course the paradox is there that despite pathetic levels of DHT in older males, male pattern balding levels reach vast majority of males 80%+, and the degree of balding is at it's most severe Norwood 7.

Finally, Removing DHT, either by chemical castration or actual castration, does not regrow vellus hair. it just stop further loss.

There are other paradoxes, prenatal baldness in babies, body hair growth, the "dht insensitive" area of scalp.,
but for now I think thats enough to indicate that although DHT is needed to progress pattern hair loss, there is evidence that it is not the only factor involved in hair loss.
...and as the thread title implies, I am beginning to suspect the immune system is the genetic/environmental weak link in those predisposed to baldness.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Now, lets compare balding and non balding scalps.

In a healthy non-balding scalp the hair follicle, regenerates over and over again.

In a balding scalp the follicle doesn't regenerate properly, it miniturises and the follicle stays dormant longer between growth cycles.

"DHT sensitivity!" you say. not so fast. Even when we remove all the DHT from your system the follicle still does not regenerate. So, we can refine our definition of whats happening with male pattern baldness.
aside from DHT related hair loss, there is an additional problem Failure of the follicle to regenerate properly despite the absence of DHT.

Moreover, Cotsarelis discovered that bald scalps still have hair follicle stem cells, but whatever signals to them to give rise to progenitor hair cells is not working.
WARNING SPECULATION: This regeneration problem is massively overlooked as a fundamental difference between the non-bald and the balding. We're so focused on DHT, that we never considered the possibility that DHT is equally hair damaging to the nonbald, but they just regenerate and we don't.

So, at this point hopefully your firstly open to the possibility that DHT is needed for male pattern baldness, but not the primary driving force. Failure to regenerate the follicle combined with DHT induced inflammation are happening together.
This is where the immune system starts to come into play, as it may be involved in both of these processes.

Firstly, consider this fascinating study...
Scientists transplanted hairs from both balding and non balding regions of the scalp onto immunodeficiency mice. (From several donors, one of whom was a woman)
Guess what happened?
The non balding hair grew modestly thicker, but the wispy vellus balding hairs... They completely regenerated... 400% diameter increase.
The authors expressed that DHT alone could not explain the phenomenon because it worked in male mice as well, and one of the donors of androgenetic alopecia vellus hair was a female with Androgenetic Alopecia and normal hormone levels.

So that's big NEWS to me, finasteride can stop further loss but has little to no affect on regrowth, yet if we put the vellus hairs onto an immunodeficiency mouse they fully regenerate...

Secondly...
No doubt you read about the recent TREG discovery.
T-regs may be 'culpable in autoimmune diseases.
T-reg dysfunction result in allerges to harmless substances.
T-regs protect against inflammation
T-regs signal to hair stem cells to regenerate (through notch signalling pathway jag 1).

moreover, the jag1 gene that mediates the signalling process has already been highlighted as a genetic immunity risk marker for male pattern hairloss in a much older unrelated study, prior to this new finding about tregs.
_______________________________________________________________________________

To summarise, I will say this much: When you have a biological phenomenon as pervasive and distinct as male pattern balding, you can garrauntee that there is a singular and universal cause for it.
One driving force of this manifested phenotype, common to all sufferers.
As in any system natural or designed, 20% of the variables are responsible for 80% of the result.
...and although DHT is necessary (perhaps the weapon of destruction), the agent of destruction or the primary force previously vaguely titled "genetic sensitivity" is more accurately described as an immune dysfunction.

For it is immune dysfunction that would potentially explain an averse reaction to a natural ordinary biological substance in the first place.
It is an immune dysfunction that would potentially explain chronic inflammation response.
...And now with the latest observations of treg signalling, it is an immune dysfunction that would explain failure of our still present stem cells to regenerate.


I am just one guy with an immune theory and I have yet to evaluate more studies to test my hypothesis. They haven't created the "virtual physiological human" yet to run analytics on my theory, so the best I can do is review the literature on pubmed manually to evaluate it's accuracy. Maybe if your bored you could add a study to this thread now an then to build to our knowledge base in a coherent way.
If you have another theory start another thread outlining your paradigm.
We should use our obsessive hair loss research time productively, instead of depressing aimless googling.


__________________________________________________________________________

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>UPDATE<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
posted this separate but I think it should go here as well

Proof that DHT is not the driving force in "androgenetic Alopecia"

Ok so the whole theory that male pattern baldness is soley driven by DHT is based on eunuchs and pseudohermaphradites.... does any body know any of those? ....no, didn't think so...

So what if we found a eunuch who went bald?? that would completely disprove the DHT being the DRIVING FORCE of baldness theory...

I put it to you that if there were a shit ton of eunuchs in the world, eventually we WOULD SEE balding eunuchs, admittedly a tiny percentage. but this exception would show that something else is driving the condition...


>>> Now where is that proof I promised....?

There are a type of "eunuch" like this that do suffer male pattern baldness.... Prepubescent GIRLS and boys, clinically diagnosed with ANDROGENETIC ALOPECIA.....

this proves that despite the absence of testostertone and dht, that some other biological force is responsible for bodies failure to regenerate the hair organ

....I'm gonna say that again because its so important, under normal conditions the hair organ regenerates over and over again.... In male pattern baldness hair organ fails to regenerate even in prepubescent girls (No DHT present) with this clinically diagnosed condition...

and the study only reported kids brought to a clinic by parents, imaging all the parents deflecting this issue by saying "little mary has naturally very fine hair", or a "naturally high hairline"...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15787828

____________________________________________________________________________________

And then there's the fact that castrating a male will not regenerate the hair organ, despite 0 dht being present.

Old men with the most severe baldness make up the majority of bald cases, despite very low DHT, a point that the famous eunich theory doctor hamilton acknowledged in later life, admitting he had doubts about his own theory..

also the immunodeficient mice who can regenerate a transplanted male pattern baldness follicle, despite dht presence.

i have other examples like a steroid user I know who went from norwood 3 vertex to norwood 1. he wasn't going to bald naturally. So when he went off cycle the dht strain was gone. likely he fell in the spectrum of men who have this capacity to regenerate, but he pumped a shit ton of steroids into his body making dht reveal the vulnerability of all men to DHT.

______________________________________________________________________________

Now, I want you guys to really think about the things I'm saying....

DHT is a potentially harmful to ALL FOLLICLES and that's fine. The body should be able to handle it.
When I say ALL I mean ALL, I mean the horse shoe will eventually wear down to barely anything, it will be like a little thin wispy band in the most extreme cases, not full horseshoe any more, and if you lived long enough it would all go.
All women's follicles to in old age, and even so called Norwood 1s without the male pattern baldness "gene"
They will all bald eventually.

Because baldness is not just about DHT, it is about the organs ability to regenerate. DHT is an important hormone for men". This heredity male pattern baldness is not a DHT problem, it's a problem first with inflammation and regeneration, and DHT is like a car that crashes into a pile up on the free way....

One they in the future, this will be obvious to all,
You guys screaming about DHT are the equivalent of doctors performing labotomies to fix people's mental problems in the 1960s.
You have no sense of nuance, and are so emotionally invested in convincing yourself it's ok to chemically castrate yourself that you won't hear anything else.
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Re: Proof that DHT is a secondary factor in MPB

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:58 am

the study by hamilton in the 1960s was flawed anyway


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Re: Proof that DHT is a secondary factor in MPB

Post  Benjamin Button on Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:32 am

please do elaborate....
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Re: Proof that DHT is a secondary factor in MPB

Post  iuyyighghghgkh on Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:46 am

only 50% of eunuchs lost hair

It didn't take into account other factors

they were injected with testosterone - not dht

the study is just too simple anyway

what applies to eunuchs does not apply to normal men

he never said it with authority - it was more of a passing thought

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