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CS, can you clarify your thoughts on PGE2?

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CS, can you clarify your thoughts on PGE2?

Post  Rudiger on Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:46 pm

I've seen you claim that we shouldn't worry too much about reducing PGE2 levels. Can you elaborate? Are low PGE2 levels bad for hair?

I understand how PGE2, while usually thought of as pro-inflammatory, actually has anti-inflammatory potential in certain situations. I understand how sunlight can increase PGE2 while decreasing PGD2. But what I can't understand is how any remotely "healthy" diet is not going to significantly decrease PGE2 levels. Outside of zinc, rosemary, and oral castor oil, I can't find anything that increases PGE2 levels and nearly all studied "healthy" foods, from green tea to curcumin to broccoli (sulforaphane) to fish oil, seem to lower PGE2, usually but not necessarily, via COX inhibition.

I'm looking at the Cotsarelis study and frankly I don't see PGE2 being that much more elevated in haired scalps.


Is lowering PGE2 going to harm hair growth and are COX inhibitors slowly killing hair? Is PGE2 necessary for maintaining hair or only regrowth?

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Re: CS, can you clarify your thoughts on PGE2?

Post  CausticSymmetry on Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:04 am

Rudiger wrote:I've seen you claim that we shouldn't worry too much about reducing PGE2 levels. Can you elaborate? Are low PGE2 levels bad for hair?

I understand how PGE2, while usually thought of as pro-inflammatory, actually has anti-inflammatory potential in certain situations. I understand how sunlight can increase PGE2 while decreasing PGD2. But what I can't understand is how any remotely "healthy" diet is not going to significantly decrease PGE2 levels. Outside of zinc, rosemary, and oral castor oil, I can't find anything that increases PGE2 levels and nearly all studied "healthy" foods, from green tea to curcumin to broccoli (sulforaphane) to fish oil, seem to lower PGE2, usually but not necessarily, via COX inhibition.

I'm looking at the Cotsarelis study and frankly I don't see PGE2 being that much more elevated in haired scalps.


Is lowering PGE2 going to harm hair growth and are COX inhibitors slowly killing hair? Is PGE2 necessary for maintaining hair or only regrowth?

This paper might answer your question:

https://aasldpubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/hep.28928

Lowering PGD2 is much more important. Also there are dozens of other factors in MPB that have little to do with prostaglandins.

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Re: CS, can you clarify your thoughts on PGE2?

Post  Rudiger on Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:14 am

Interesting paper that vouches for oral Castor oil use (a PGE2ep3 agonist) but this would still mean too much COX inhibition is bad.

I guess what I was trying to get at is I don't see enough convincing evidence for PGE2 promoting or maintaining hair growth. I don't think Cotsarelis provides any, and I don't think Swisstemples is proof either. If it was, all he had to do was upload more pictures of his progress.

That PGE2 is necessary for hair growth is quite frightening because I don't see a practical way of lowering PGD2 without also lowering PGE2. But I don't think that conclusion can be drawn from either Cotsarelis or Swisstemples.

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Re: CS, can you clarify your thoughts on PGE2?

Post  CausticSymmetry on Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:39 am

Rudiger wrote:Interesting paper that vouches for oral Castor oil use (a PGE2ep3 agonist) but this would still mean too much COX inhibition is bad.

I guess what I was trying to get at is I don't see enough convincing evidence for PGE2  promoting or maintaining hair growth. I don't think Cotsarelis provides any, and I don't think Swisstemples is proof either. If it was, all he had to do was upload more pictures of his progress.

That PGE2 is necessary for hair growth is quite frightening because I don't see a practical way of lowering PGD2 without also lowering PGE2. But I don't think that conclusion can be drawn from either Cotsarelis or Swisstemples.

My overall regimen (not necessarily the basic stuff) addresses all kinds of factors. I have a basic full attack on PGD2 and hair loss has been a distance memory for several years now.

Also, because PGD2 is strongly expressed in balding scalps, I consider PGE2 a minor affair. Also what usually gets lost in translation with many studies is that various naturals modulate prostaglandin behavior, not always ostensibly blocking it.
 
Probably the most blatant example of this is cancer. Many pro-hair growth substances inhibit certain prostaglandins and enzymes in conditions of tumor growth in cancer invasiveness.

Also, perhaps the most important is that in order to resolve hair loss in my experience, eliminating the cause(s) is more important than always treating the inflammation.

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Re: CS, can you clarify your thoughts on PGE2?

Post  Mxssingno on Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:15 pm

Ricinoleic acid from castor oil is also a PTGDS inhibitor. Pure ricinoleic also has a molecular weight of 298.461g/mol. Seems pretty interesting, I wish someone could hook up a source.

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Re: CS, can you clarify your thoughts on PGE2?

Post  CausticSymmetry on Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:51 am

Mxssingno wrote:Ricinoleic acid from castor oil is also a PTGDS inhibitor. Pure ricinoleic also has a molecular weight of 298.461g/mol. Seems pretty interesting, I wish someone could hook up a source.

https://www.iherb.com/pr/Heritage-Store-Castor-Oil-32-fl-oz-960-ml/6476?=hil335

or

https://amzn.to/2PKQKyh

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Re: CS, can you clarify your thoughts on PGE2?

Post  Rudiger on Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:32 am

Mxssingno wrote:Ricinoleic acid from castor oil is also a PTGDS inhibitor. Pure ricinoleic also has a molecular weight of 298.461g/mol. Seems pretty interesting, I wish someone could hook up a source.

I've read lots of anecdotes about castor oil oral and topical growing vellus hairs but they don't seem to go terminal, or at least no one is talking about it. Maybe it's simply too inconvenient to use long-term and people quit before real results can be seen.

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Re: CS, can you clarify your thoughts on PGE2?

Post  Mxssingno on Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:47 am

When castor oil is applied to the skin does it break down into free ricinoleic acid? I was under the impression it was bound to something and hoped a lack of enzymes in the skin might explain its limited effect. My knowledge of chemistry is virtually non-existant so I have no idea tbh.

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Re: CS, can you clarify your thoughts on PGE2?

Post  Rudiger on Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:26 am

Mxssingno wrote:When castor oil is applied to the skin does it break down into free ricinoleic acid? I was under the impression it was bound to something and hoped a lack of enzymes in the skin might explain its limited effect. My knowledge of chemistry is virtually non-existant so I have no idea tbh.

Castor oil is about 90% ricinoleic acid, which acts as a PGE2 agonist specifically on the ep3 receptor (there's a total of 4 PGE2 receptors). Beyond that, I can't tell you much. I know PGE2 applied topically has anti-fibrotic properties and could help with scarring (ep2 receptor specifically) but I can't confirm whether this works also through the ep3 receptor. Ricinoleic acid has a molecular weight of under 500 so it should penetrate the skin but it's really thick so it's kind of awkward to apply.

It's also consumed orally and has been reported to increase body hair as well as head hair.

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Re: CS, can you clarify your thoughts on PGE2?

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