Lasers + carnitine

hey cs or jdp,

Is there such thing as too much atp and overworked mitocondria? I know lasers and carnitine both increase atp and if the combination of the 2 could be overdoing it?

1..... - If you're taking say, Acetyl L-Carnitine, I would strongly recommend you take lipoic acid with it, to prevent free-radicals as result of ATP generation.

I doubt that lasers would present any problem but let's see what jdp710 says. He's done more research on lasers than most people on earth.

Thanks CausticSymmetry.


1...,

LLLT is unique in that unlike food, carnitine, etc. the increased ATP that is created from LLLT does not create free radicals in the process.

A quote

"Lasers increase the mitochondrial production of ATP without increasing the production of free radicals."

http://www.todayschiropractic.com/issues/archives/may_jun_05/feat_001.html


Here's some information regarding LLLT

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Osmosis states that no nutrient can transfer across the depolarized membrane of an injured cell. One of the most important functions of low level laser therapy is to re-polarize sick and injured cellular membranes. This allows for essential nutrients to transfer from the blood into the cell.

In summary, the photons produced by laser light normalise tissue by activating enzymes within cells, which triggers a chemical reaction in which more enzymes are activated in a domino-type effect. Low level laser therapy has no effect on normal tissue. Photons are only taken up by cells that need them.

SUMMARY OF HEALING EFFECTS

Light bio-stimulation influences functions in the following ways:

• Acceleration of the inflammatory stages, to achieve quicker healing - bursitis, tendonitis, arthritis,

• the general healing of wounds and injuries – diabetic ulcers, venous ulcers, bed sores, mouth ulcers, fractures, tendon ruptures, ligamentous tear, torn cartilage etc.

• Pain control - low back pain, neck pain, pain associated with inflammatory conditions, Carpel Tunnel Syndrome, arthritis, tennis elbow, golfer’s elbow, post herpetic neuralgia, muscle cramps etc.

• Stimulation of cellular replication (which is the key to healing and the production of healthy tissue)

• Increase of DNA and RNA synthesis

• Stimulation of collagen production (collagen is the main supportive protein of skin, tendon, bone, cartilage and connective tissue.) – excellent for beauty therapy, wrinkle management, acne

• Alteration of the immune system (helps immune cells combat infection)

• Stimulation of fibroblast activity (aids in the production of collagen)

• Enhancement of vascularisation (aids in improving circulation - poor circulation in diabetes, massage therapy, relaxation

• Stimulates the sodium potassium pumps in cell membranes which enables transport of essential nutrients into cells to allow healing.

www.lightforhealth.co.uk/content/light-and-the-body.pdf

Here is a good and easy to understand pdf of the benefits of LLLT

http://www.regenerativehealthclinic.net/phdi/p1.nsf/pages/3102:LOWLEVELLASER.pdf/$file/LOWLEVELLASER.pdf

JDP- How often do you laser a week? How many minutes per session?

excellent question, youngbalder. I would also love to know JDP's personal protocol with the laser and topicals!


I have been using my helmet for approximately 2 months. The effects are visible but it is hard to pinpoint the exact nature of those effects. My hair is fuller, darker. It stays well groomed for the whole day rather than the first few hours. Today a colleague actually commented on the health of my hair. That hasnt happened in a long long time.

Like others I was spooked by the posts of massive sheds on another posting board. Thankfully your and OMG's response saved the day and lowered my anxiety levels.

in the last week I have been going by "feel" . By feel I mean that after some time of laser use you can begin to differentiate between that warm exercised glow feeling versus the sunburned feeling. I have noticed that these sensations appear a little after a laser session so I have been experimenting with doing "sets" where I laser for ten minutes, take a break , see how it feels, laser for another ten minutes, if I feel that glow then I stop, if I dont I will laser for another 10 minutes. I never go over 30 minutes total.

As far as topicals go, I cycle a variety of them: carnitine dissolved in stinging nettle extract. Vit c and emu oil, probiotics after Nizoral shampoo use, recently bromelain in coconut oil. I have lithium orotate but I am hoarding it. It isnt legally available in Canada. I guess I should use it before it expires!

I am curious about JDP's thoughts on the topical use of amino acids. I gather from recent posts that you have been using lysine. I cant find anywhere when this started and what your reasons for its use are. Would you mind filling me in?

would taurine be useful? how about l arginine. Ive bought tons of the stuff when it was taken off the shelves in Canada. It came back quickly so there was no actual need to do that, but I wasnt going to take a chance. I had been using it in high doses for years Unfortunately I develop early signs of shingles when I use it now. I would love to use it on my scalp if that is a useful thing to do!

youngbalder wrote:JDP- How often do you laser a week? How many minutes per session?

From Dec 2007 - April 2008 I used a 6 diode brush for about 2 1/2 hours every 2 or 3 days if I remember right ]as I already knew the benefits of LLLT as I was already into LED's for anti aging before. I realized that the reason why people weren't happy with the laser brushes at the time was that they didn't have enough joules. Using those 6 diode brushes for a longer period increases the joules but becomes a real pain to use.

At this time I was getting ready to buy a Konftec laser helmet for something like $3,000 or $4,000 when OMG came out and told his results and explained how to make your own laser helmet. Those same konftec helmets now they sell for like $1,200, lol. At the time I thought I would have got a good deal spending $3,000 - $4,000 to buy a kongtec helmet as it was cheaper than those $40,000 machines.

Anyway, I was one of the first at this time to build a laser helmet and I copied OMG's original design as much as possible as I knew if OMG had results, then I should copy the design as close as possible and not try to reinvent something else.

From about 04/08 - 01/09 I poured over as much research as possible and there were a lot of people collaborating research, studies, experiences and of course the best laser helmet design that would follow the LLLT studies. This was extraordinarily hard to do!!! Results were more important than looks and OMG ended up with the best design after more than a dozen of my helmet designs I created. Although, I might have won on the coolest looking design if I completed it. It was built around a rotating Christmas tree stand .... I stopped building it based on new research.

At this time I used my helmets for 20 minutes x 3

From 01/09 - 5/09 I very rarely used my laser helmet as I already stopped my hair loss and I wanted to see how long it would take for my hair to go down hill again. I basically wanted to find out what Itchy said was true that it took him 3 months for hair loss to resume. Well, it took me 4 months

From 05/09 - today it has varied. Some weeks and months I'll use it 20 minutes x 3 per week, while other weeks and months I'll use it 20 minutes x 4 or 5 and other weeks and months I'll use it 15 minutes x or 5. While other weeks and months I'll use it less or not at all. I realized months ago that using your helmet more often is better ... not sure on time frame as it would take an extremely long time to figure that out but hapyman is happy with somewhere around 12 minutes x 4 if I remember right. Maybe it's changed but that's around what he liked. A few other people were trying this, including one of my family members who I built a helmet for but not sure of their results in comparison.



One point I wanted to mention is that the whole LLLT gives you this endless shed where you'll lose all your hair was orchestrated by one person or a couple people who created multiple user names. I actually sat back and watched all the posts at hairlossfight for almost 2 months that I knew were fake until I finally had enough research, evidence, etc.. I've said it several times before but that board isn't nearly as active as what most people believe due to all the fake posting. I don't post there anymore because of it as life is to short to debate one or two people with their 6 - 12 user names that they've created.

I should also say that while I'm not debating that LLLT gives a shed, far from it as I know that happens, but what isn't true is that you'll get this endless shed where you'll lose 50% of your hair was complete BS.

Here's a quote that I thought was fitting and about sums up what happened

"You would'nt believe the ammount of time and work we put in to keep this place the way it was intended to be. Between the Trolls, Guys with agendas and People we've pissed off over the years I've often entertained the thought of this board going private."

Sorry for the long answer as I felt all this information was appropriate. The short answer is that 3 x 20 minutes is the standard treatment time based on the LLLT studies. Some laser clinics do 2 times per week but that's only for the customers convenience, IMO. One former forum member, I think it was I gotta have more cowbell, also confirmed this. Even the employees will use it more than what they tell their customers. I remember early on one person posted that the owner of the laser clinic used his laser hood 5 days a week.

And remember overstimulation doesn't cause a shed but will cause you not to get results. Well, that is unless your going way overboard like 40 minutes x 3 or similiar. Also remember that too little stimulation (joules) will also not get as good of results.

Best thing I can recommend is to use an OMG helmet, which requires a minimum of 200 diodes IME, for 20 minutes x 3 or alternatively you can do 10 - 15 minutes x 4. Clay is essential ... better than worrying about which shampoo works best and magnesium chloride may also be of great help for a lot of people. Also, LLLT is like a slow escalator ride. It takes months for results to kick in and takes months for results to wain once you've stopped LLLT. It took me about 4 months to get results and 4 months for MPB to kick in once I stopped using LLLT. This may be due to the benefits of laser blood irradiation. At least that's my theory.

hope this helps

Hey thelibrarian,

IME, I've found the sunburned feeling is caused by a diode or a couple of them are burning hot if you touch them. This might be true for you as well as it's normal for a small percentage of diodes to run hot. So the sunburned feeling that you get on your scalp may be caused by the heat of a diode or a couple of them. You can check your helmet by putting on a pair of sunglasses, hold your helmet a little far away from your eyes and turn on the helmet. The ones that run burning hot will be the ones that aren't as bright ... they'll be pretty dim. Once your helmet has been on for 10 or so minutes if you touch the dim diode they'll probably be very hot.

Once I cut all the burning hot diodes out, I no longer get that sunburned feeling, even if using my helmet for 30 or so minutes. My hair will get a bit frizzy or dry due to the small amounts of heat for a long period of time but that's it.


As far as topical lysine goes, it's definitely one of the best things I've done hair loss wise ... it's also dirt cheap. I just add some lysine in water and apply to my hair. It might be my imagination but best results I think are to wash off before your hair dries but keep it in for 20 or so minutes.

Here's a quote from CausticSymmetry

"When you mentioned the topical Lysine, especially with you current experience it seems to wrap up all of the important factors such as all the posts in the DKK-1 thread, the herpes simplex virus thread, NO/ONOO cycle, etc.

Before this I wasn't all that excited about Lysine since I had tried mega doses in years past, mostly on the basis on a patent and a study on women's hair loss.

But topically this can bring on a whole new dimension.

europe - If you're reading this, Lysine inhibits MMP-9 (a collagenase enzyme that degrades hair follicles), it inhibits Herpes simplex virus (jdp710 has a great thread on this), helps prevent the deposition of Lipoprotein(a) and Lysine can help dampen the adverse effects of when Nitric Oxide combines with superoxide, forming potent oxidant peroxynitrite per NO/ONOO cycle.

I should receive my lysine powder later today, but I'm going to first try it with a lazy twist. I'm going to try lathering it in via a shampoo with some added DMSO. I'll report back if that method works, if not I'll just try it jdp710 style."

http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/natural-hair-regrowth-forum-f1/good-brands-for-pauling-protocol-t1561-15.htm?highlight=pauling

Also, considering lysine's role in free glutamic acid, there "may" be another benefit that it help the glutamate receptors on our scalp from getting overexcited, causing inflammation histamine, etc..

hope this helps

Thank you so much JDP!


are you using any other topicals besides lysine these days?
I have been using carnitine in the hopes that it would feed the mitochondria. I have a suspicion that overstimulation with the laser is due to mitochondrial depletion. Maybe if the mitochondria are well stocked with ATP there is less probability of overstimulation?

You seem to indicate that more is probably better than less with the laser helmet - up to a point.

I believe I read in a previous post that you stated that you would have to double the standard protocol of 3x20 minutes to approach overstimulation. Is that correct?

I dread the shed! I havent shed in years and years! How long was your shed and how severe was it?

thanks!

Hey thelibrarian,

These days I'm not really using anything for my hair loss or supplements for better health. Everything seems to have been corrected by my diet and nothing else needs to be used to keep hair loss in check. If my results continue this way for a long time, which I believe it will, then I'll still use LLLT to prevent gray hair and the laser blood irradiation benefits and I'll also use supplements for longevity, etc. but right now I'm experimenting how things will be long term with diet.

With that said, I'm still going to continue trialing Prague's topical and also the magnesium ascorbyl palmitate topical for regrowth.

As for as overstimulation/bioinhibition, yeah, at the least you'd need 8 joules to cause any negative problems. 20 minutes with an OMG helmet = 4 joules. 40 minutes with an OMG helmet = 8 joules. Best biostimulation results in studies are shown around 4 - 7 joules. 12 joules is really where you'd want to watch out which would be 60 minutes with an OMG helmet. 1 dose or a couple doses that high haven't shown to cause an immediate shed based on a couple people's experiences of falling asleep with their helmet on.

Also, I've never noticed a shed with LLLT. I don't believe that's the norm and with the fake posts at HLF it's impossible to tell the percentages of people who get a shed unless you've had conversations with them previously.

BTW, LLLT increases superoxide dismutase (SOD). Increasing SOD will reverse fibrosis but I believe it would take years for best results.

hope this helps

Here's one study from OMG's site

"http://www.bioline.org.br/request?md05001

“Light of a number of different wavelengths, specifically 660, 820, 870nm, at an energy density of 2.4J/cm2, has been shown to stimulate the ability of macrophages in vitro to release growth factors, which stimulate fibroblast proliferation; in contrast, light of 880nm wavelength was inhibitory (Smith, 1991). At 660nm the stimulatory effect of LLLT is dose dependent for exposure to energy densities of 2.4 - 7.2J/cm2, the upper end of the range being most effective and with 9.6J/cm2 proving to be less effective than 7.2J/cm2.”

http://www.bioline.org.br/request?md05001

Does CQ10 overwork mitochondria like Acetyl-L-Carnitine?

hey Jdp! thanks for all your info, time and effort!

JDP- I know this is off topic but I read on OMG's website that LLLT can also help with acne and reducing pore size. I want to experiment with it but dont know how many times per week and how many minutes per session. Got any advice?

Almost forgot i will be using the laser on my face and back