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CS: Question about homemade liposomal Vitamin C and PH

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CS: Question about homemade liposomal Vitamin C and PH

Post  virtua_ on Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:51 am

I followed the guides around and made some liposomal vitamin C using and ultrasonic cleaner, distilled water, lecithin and sodium ascorbate.

I see in many guides they as you to use 1 level tablespoon of ascorbic acid and then 1 heaping tablespoon of sodium bicarbonate to make sodium ascorbate.

I thought that I might as well just buy it, so I got Now Foods Sodium Ascorbate.

However, I read now that the PH of the finished solution should be between 7 and 7.5 on the PH scale. Mine came out to be about 6.2...

They say that the blood is around 7.2-7.3, so does this make my solution dangerous? I already took two tablespoons of it before I tested the PH...

Is there a chance that my sodium ascorbate from Now Foods has too little Sodium Bicarbonate? I would guess (not big on chemistry) that there is a certain ratio the vitamin C molecule binds to the Sodium Bicarbonate molecule though?

Perhaps the other people are only getting 7 - 7.5 PH because they add so much Sodium Bicarbonate, but part of the Sodum Bicarbonate is "free" and not bound in Sodium Ascorbate? If so, could/should I add some Sodium Bicarbonate to the solution and encapsulate again?

Thanks!

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Re: CS: Question about homemade liposomal Vitamin C and PH

Post  CausticSymmetry on Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:59 am

Making a long story short, the whole notion of pH for foods is completely wrong. There are previous threads about this, which might be buried within a lot of misinformation about pH and alkalinity.

Without getting into too much detail, where pH really counts is inside the cell, not in the intestine. When foods are consumed, it is actually better to have an intestinal pH of 4.5 to 5.5, not 7.0 or higher. Also consider that lactic acid bacteria are essentially acidic.

Food and minerals cannot be properly broken down without our own stomach acid, which is very acidic.

The popularity of alkaline water is a misnomer, its not the alkalinity that is so beneficial, it's because it's negatively charged, alkalinity is only a side-effect of ionization. If it's not ionized alkaline water, then it's not worth drinking.
Would prefer to drink acid water instead.

Making a short story longer - Regarding blood pH, the thyroid handles that part of it. Interestingly, many people have a blood pH that exceeds 7.2, which is pro-cancer. When pH ranges in the blood are brought down from 7.3 or 7.4 to 7.2, there is less of a problem.

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Re: CS: Question about homemade liposomal Vitamin C and PH

Post  virtua_ on Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:09 am

OK, it's interesting about the food and alkalinity, but isn't this different since it's liposomal?

I've seen people say that liposomes will go right into the blood intact, and therefore anything in them might reach the blood (and possibly also inside of cells). So that's why there was so much talk about the PH needing to be between 7 and 7.5. Is this incorrect?

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Re: CS: Question about homemade liposomal Vitamin C and PH

Post  CausticSymmetry on Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:33 am

No, although I can understand the concern. When an intravenous delivery of vitamin C is administered, it is straight ascorbic acid, which is much more acidic than the form you are using.


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Re: CS: Question about homemade liposomal Vitamin C and PH

Post  4039 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:36 am

Acidosis is very real, especially when the kidneys can't produce bicarbonate, it's deadly. Though you are measuring the outside of the liposome, which is inconsequential. The inside is more than likely within the acceptable range, if you are truly using sodium ascorbate. I usually measure the pH before going liposomal, and add sodium bicarbonate accordingly.

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Re: CS: Question about homemade liposomal Vitamin C and PH

Post  virtua_ on Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:43 am

CausticSymmetry wrote:No, although I can understand the concern. When an intravenous delivery of vitamin C is administered, it is straight ascorbic acid, which is much more acidic than the form you are using.


OK, thanks, that's reassuring, if they use that in IVs! Smile

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Re: CS: Question about homemade liposomal Vitamin C and PH

Post  virtua_ on Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:49 am

4039 wrote:Acidosis is very real, especially when the kidneys can't produce bicarbonate, it's deadly. Though you are measuring the outside of the liposome, which is inconsequential. The inside is more than likely within the acceptable range, if you are truly using sodium ascorbate. I usually measure the pH before going liposomal, and add sodium bicarbonate accordingly.

OK, but you use ascorbic acid and then add sodium bicarbonate to get to 7.0-7.5?

I am using sodium ascorbate, but as I suspected that means it's a "locked" ratio of ascorbic acid to sodium bicarbonate. Wikipedia:
"Sodium ascorbate normally provides 131 mg of sodium per 1,000 mg of ascorbic acid", so this means I think sodium ascorbate is not really at PH 7-7.5? Could it be that what you are putting in the liposome is sodium ascorbate and free sodium bicarbonate, which together yields a PH of 7-7.5?

I e-mailed LivOn Labs and they told me their Lypo-Spheric Vitamin C had a PH of 6.5, and they use pure Sodium Ascorbate as per their ingredients.

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Re: CS: Question about homemade liposomal Vitamin C and PH

Post  4039 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:04 pm

virtua_ wrote:

OK, but you use ascorbic acid and then add sodium bicarbonate to get to 7.0-7.5?

I am using sodium ascorbate, but as I suspected that means it's a "locked" ratio of ascorbic acid to sodium bicarbonate. Wikipedia:
"Sodium ascorbate normally provides 131 mg of sodium per 1,000 mg of ascorbic acid", so this means I think sodium ascorbate is not really at PH 7-7.5? Could it be that what you are putting in the liposome is sodium ascorbate and free sodium bicarbonate, which together yields a PH of 7-7.5?

I e-mailed LivOn Labs and they told me their Lypo-Spheric Vitamin C had a PH of 6.5, and they use pure Sodium Ascorbate as per their ingredients.



You would need sodium bicarbonate to add to ascorbic acid. Sodium ascorbate is already made by mixing and neutralizing two parts ascorbic acid to one part sodium bicarbonate.

Depending on the ingredients of my liposomal mixture, I either add alkalizing sodium bicarbonate or ascorbic acid to get within the perfect range for human blood. Sodium ascorbate is already within the correct range, 7.0 to 7.5pH, so don't fret. Smile

I assume LivOn measured the finished lecithin mixure itself, which should be in the 6.5-7.0 range. A pH nearer to 3.5 would mean the C wasn't properly injected inside the membrane and needs more time. Don't be afraid to place it through a few more cycles. Though looks like yours is ready to ingest.


It's all explained in the tutorial. They probably should just recommend sodium ascorbate, but it's good to make DIYers aware of proper pH. BTW, I use Now's pharmaceutical grade sodium ascorbate.
http://www.quantumbalancing.com/liposomalC.htm

Good luck.

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Re: CS: Question about homemade liposomal Vitamin C and PH

Post  virtua_ on Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:23 pm

4039 wrote:You would need sodium bicarbonate to add to ascorbic acid. Sodium ascorbate is already made by mixing and neutralizing two parts ascorbic acid to one part sodium bicarbonate.

Depending on the ingredients of my liposomal mixture, I either add alkalizing sodium bicarbonate or ascorbic acid to get within the perfect range for human blood. Sodium ascorbate is already within the correct range, 7.0 to 7.5pH, so don't fret. Smile

See, I don't think this is mostly the case? Take a look at these products:
http://www.iherb.com/NutriBiotic-Sodium-Ascorbate-Crystalline-Powder-16-oz-454-g/10178?at=0
http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Sodium-Ascorbate-8-oz-227-g/795?at=0
http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Vitamin-C-8-oz-226-8-g/966?at=0

None of them have the ratio of sodium bicarbonate to ascorbic acid you mentioned. In fact, it's only around 130-140 mg of sodium bicarbonate to 1 gram of ascorbic acid.

I'm inclined to believe that sodium ascorbate can only ever be in this concentration and if you add more sodium bicarbonate you get sodium ascorbate + free sodium bicarbonate. But I'm no chemist so I'm not sure...

Thanks for taking your time though, not attacking you, just trying to wrap my head around this! Smile

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Re: CS: Question about homemade liposomal Vitamin C and PH

Post  Yanks on Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:55 am

I haven't read through, but a quick question, and MAYBE somewhat of a solution... fat soluable vit c? Would it work? I would think it would mitigate the PH issue.

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Re: CS: Question about homemade liposomal Vitamin C and PH

Post  4039 on Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:56 am

Yanks wrote:I haven't read through, but a quick question, and MAYBE somewhat of a solution... fat soluable vit c? Would it work? I would think it would mitigate the PH issue.

Fat soluble vitamin C does exist in ascorbyl palmitate. I believe it has a neutral pH, slightly lower than sodium ascorbate, but isn't necessarily any more bioavailable than other forms.

virtua_ wrote:

See, I don't think this is mostly the case? Take a look at these products:
http://www.iherb.com/NutriBiotic-Sodium-Ascorbate-Crystalline-Powder-16-oz-454-g/10178?at=0
http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Sodium-Ascorbate-8-oz-227-g/795?at=0
http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Vitamin-C-8-oz-226-8-g/966?at=0

None of them have the ratio of sodium bicarbonate to ascorbic acid you mentioned. In fact, it's only around 130-140 mg of sodium bicarbonate to 1 gram of ascorbic acid.

I'm inclined to believe that sodium ascorbate can only ever be in this concentration and if you add more sodium bicarbonate you get sodium ascorbate + free sodium bicarbonate. But I'm no chemist so I'm not sure...

Thanks for taking your time though, not attacking you, just trying to wrap my head around this! Smile

You need to look at the molecular weight. From the link I provided, "*One mole of sodium bicarbonate is 84 grams, and one mole of ascorbic acid is 176 grams. So, the correct (stoichiometric) ratio of sodium bicarbonate to ascorbic acid is 84/176 = 0.477. For example, it would take 477 milligrams of sodium bicarbonate to neutralize 1000 milligrams of ascorbic acid."

From your link, the NutriBiotic brand even expressly states a 7.1pH, as based in USP-FCC, and the Now brand states, "Sodium Ascorbate is synthesized from a combination of Sodium Bicarbonate and Ascorbic Acid to form Sodium Ascorbate." Smile The bicarbonate forms a chemical reaction to neutralize the acid in the ascorbate.

If you're unsure, wet some sodium ascorbate and measure the pH. I measured the Now brand a few weeks ago, it was approximately 7.2pH, which is fine. If you like, you can still add more bicarb to reach the 'scientifically acceptable' pH of blood, 7.4. It actually takes some trial and error, and note taking, to get within a correct range. Take a deep breath and trust in your intuition and logic.

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Re: CS: Question about homemade liposomal Vitamin C and PH

Post  virtua_ on Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:14 am

4039 wrote:You need to look at the molecular weight. From the link I provided, "*One mole of sodium bicarbonate is 84 grams, and one mole of ascorbic acid is 176 grams. So, the correct (stoichiometric) ratio of sodium bicarbonate to ascorbic acid is 84/176 = 0.477. For example, it would take 477 milligrams of sodium bicarbonate to neutralize 1000 milligrams of ascorbic acid."

From your link, the NutriBiotic brand even expressly states a 7.1pH, as based in USP-FCC, and the Now brand states, "Sodium Ascorbate is synthesized from a combination of Sodium Bicarbonate and Ascorbic Acid to form Sodium Ascorbate." Smile The bicarbonate forms a chemical reaction to neutralize the acid in the ascorbate.

If you're unsure, wet some sodium ascorbate and measure the pH. I measured the Now brand a few weeks ago, it was approximately 7.2pH, which is fine. If you like, you can still add more bicarb to reach the 'scientifically acceptable' pH of blood, 7.4. It actually takes some trial and error, and note taking, to get within a correct range. Take a deep breath and trust in your intuition and logic.

Yes, but if you look at the Nutribiotic and Now Brands, you'll see that none of them contains 477 mg of sodium bicarbonate per 1000 mg of ascorbic acid. They contain 130-140 mg of sodium bicarbonate per 1000 mg ascorbid acid. Wouldn't that mean they are not neutral in PH?

I measured the Now brand today and got a PH of between 6.2 and 6.5. However the distilled water I used had a PH of 6.5 too I found.

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Re: CS: Question about homemade liposomal Vitamin C and PH

Post  4039 on Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:28 am

Someone's pH tester needs to be calibrated. Smile Oh... or it's possible your tester doesn't have a temperature sensor, which could affect calibration accuracy. Properly distilled water should have a neutral pH.

BTW, looking at pH not only as potential hydrogen, but also voltage, opens up an entirely new paradigm away from established science. Just to give a better idea as to why blood pH is so important.

http://tennantinstitute.us/integrative-medicine/what-is-my-voltage.html

Anyway, take care. I need to get some work done today. lol

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Re: CS: Question about homemade liposomal Vitamin C and PH

Post  virtua_ on Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:24 am

Hehe, I don't have an electrical PH reader, I just use PH stix. Alkalive. So they might be off.

However, I was wondering about the "It takes 477 milligrams of sodium bicarbonate to neutralize 1000 milligrams of ascorbic acid", since as I said, none of the commercial sodium ascorbates have that much, only 130-130 mg sodium bicarbonate per 1000 mg sodium ascorbate.

Thanks for the link, very interesting read! Smile

Didn't mean to drag you away from work man! Very Happy

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