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DIM Results and Liver Detox

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DIM Results and Liver Detox

Post  AS54 on Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:21 am

I have been taking DIM consistently for about 1 month now. I am using Source Naturals, which isn't the BioDIM, but contains the Vitamin E and Phosphatidyl Choline and Piperine. In addition I have been consuming high amounts of Silymarin and TMG to help my liver clean out.

I have suffered with extremely stubborn fat on my trunk and pretty severe gynocomastia for the past three years or so, obviously attributable to high estrogen, but probably a downstream effect of insulin resistance.

I have lost a significant amount of weight during this period without really altering my diet immensely or doing anything other than light exercise. My gyno is severely reduced and my fat seems to be dissappearing quickly also.

I wanted to know if anyone else has any experiences with DIM, and what their results were.

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Re: DIM Results and Liver Detox

Post  whodathunkit on Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:35 pm

anthonyspencer, this is very interesting...wish I could contribute, but can't since I haven't tried. But I think I want to. At the risk of forcing you to be repetitive, would you mind telling me what TMG is? Think I've seen it but can't find it.

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Re: DIM Results and Liver Detox

Post  AS54 on Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:52 pm

Hey Whodathunkit,

TMG = Trimethylglycine, basically just the amino acid with three methyl groups attached. Its a super methyl donor basically because once it donates one methyl group, it simply becomes DMG which can again lose an additional methyl group.

I happen to think undermethylation is playing a key role in my early hair loss because with an underactive methylation cycle, the body's inflammatory response pretty much goes on unchecked. The immune system is thrown off and produces to many B cells in proportion to T cells so the body is left signalling the inflammatory response to tissues or foods that it shouldn't be attacking. I don't have the evidence to prove it, but I believe many auto immune conditions are the result of this. In any event, the process requires methyl groups obviously, but also B6, B12, Folic Acid, and Zinc & Magnesium. I have been using these combined and seen a dramatic uplift in my mood and relaxation, and my sudden bursts of body heat and reddened skin have dissappeared.

I have read some studies that TMG has shown some success in helping treat fatty liver and cirrhosis (spelling?) caused by alcohol, so I combine it with Milk Thistle also to help clean out the liver because the methylation process is also key for the liver to detox.

So really, undermethylating leads to hyper immunity, chronic inflammation (high homocysteine), and reduced ability to remove toxins which just feeds the cycle.

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Re: DIM Results and Liver Detox

Post  goten574 on Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:46 pm

Do you think the DIM has improved your gyno or the liver detox?

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Re: DIM Results and Liver Detox

Post  AS54 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:06 am

Goten,

That's partially why I posted this. I wanted to see if anybody else had similar results, because I'm not positive. From what I've read on DIM, most sources say that it helps the liver metabolize estrogen down the more beneficial pathway which I'm assuming aids the body in ridding the excess by making it easier to excrete. So I can only imagine the the DIM AND the silymarin/TMG might have some synergy in mitigating estrogen problems because not only are you helping clear the liver of fatty buildup, but your aiding it in metabolizing the estrogen more effectively.

I would also say that this has been helped along too by the fact I've been trying to get a handle on my gut health. One of the problems with having unbalanced gut bacteria is one class (gram negative I believe, they secrete B-glucoronidase that destroys the glucoronide part of the complex created by the liver, so the estrogen is unbound and free to recirculate) tend to convert estrogen back into a form that is reabsorbed by the body. So I've also been using probiotics pretty heavily along with some of the GAPS principles, and also taking bentonite clay/psyllium husk an hour or so after consuming DIM/TMG/Milk Thistle to sort of bind up bile and clear it out.

So really, I have to believe that all of these as a whole (on top of avoiding offending foods) have helped the gyno. Its really difficult to try and isolate one out of the mix without more expertise than I have.

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Re: DIM Results and Liver Detox

Post  goten574 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:36 am

How bad was your gyno? Has much has it improved and in what time frame?

I've been using Source Naturals DIM for 1 and a half months and haven't seen a reduction in my gyno. Please can you tell me how long you've been using DIM for and is it 1 capsule per day? Can you link me to the products you buy (preferably from iHerb.com) and tell me the exact dosage? I am looking to reduce my stomach fat, get my liver in better health but mainly to reduce my gyno.

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Re: DIM Results and Liver Detox

Post  Columbo on Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:56 pm

goten574 wrote:How bad was your gyno? Has much has it improved and in what time frame?

I've been using Source Naturals DIM for 1 and a half months and haven't seen a reduction in my gyno. Please can you tell me how long you've been using DIM for and is it 1 capsule per day? Can you link me to the products you buy (preferably from iHerb.com) and tell me the exact dosage? I am looking to reduce my stomach fat, get my liver in better health but mainly to reduce my gyno.

My guess is a large part of his "gyno" is fatty tissue, tissue that decreases in size with weight loss (pseudo gynecomastia)

True gynecomastia remains even if you get ripped, like roided up bodybuilders can get (glandular gynecomastia)

The only thing I found that actually reduced glandular gynecomastia was prescription drug Tamoxifen which has side effects all of its own. There's is nothing I'm aware of other than tamoxifen and surgery that will get rid of that glandular fatty tissue.

Some other observations I've noticed over the years with estrogen sensitivity...

I've tried supplements like grape seed, green tea, lignans. They're all supposed to have an anti-estrogenic effect, the mild estrogens are supposed to healthily displace the bad estrogens. But what I've noticed, is in high quantities, they have the exact opposite effect and most certainly didn't help my very mild gyno. My theory here is there's a tipping point where if even healthy/mild estrogens are taken in large enough quantity they become pro-estrogenic in a bad way (perhaps how like too much testosterone can cause estrogenic symptoms as the body looks to balance things?)

Alcohol increases estrogen sensitivity, especially binge drinking (whether that's down to messing up hormones, liver function I'm not sure). Beer, whisky and other dark drinks are worse than the likes of vodka as they're rich in phytoestrogens

Ray Peats, 1 raw carrot a day seems to help

As does eating foods rich in D-Glucarate which reduces estradiol and helps remove xenoestrogens and other toxins (apples and brocolli are the two power houses here with very large amounts of D-glucaric acid per serving) ...200-2,000 mg of glucarate gives a protective effect, 1 apple contains 300mg, 50g of brocolli just under 200mg.

I've found lifestyle choices help balance estrogen better than anything else... eating good, limiting booze, plenty of rest / power naps and exercise.


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Re: DIM Results and Liver Detox

Post  whodathunkit on Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:57 pm

I suspect re: the gyno that it's more about the liver. If your liver's a mess you can't metabolize estrogen properly, which leads to a vicious cycle of increasing estrogen in your system. DIM probably helped with dramatic results in a shorter amount of time, but over time a good liver detox will likely achieve the same effect.

Body fat increases estrogen production, so simply reducing your weight often helps with some estrogen dominance symptoms.

I don't understand all about methylation yet, but this sounds like a great little regimen. Think I'll try it, since I'm getting ready to do another liver cleanse. I've lapsed in my diet lately and I'm beginning to feel it.

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Re: DIM Results and Liver Detox

Post  goten574 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:25 pm

What would I have to do then for a good liver cleanse? Milk Thistle is one thing right?

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Re: DIM Results and Liver Detox

Post  Columbo on Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:44 pm

goten574 wrote:What would I have to do then for a good liver cleanse? Milk Thistle is one thing right?

Milk Thistle is excellent for liver support but, ironically, I found in high quantities can also trigger my gyno slightly (but with small dosage it's fine).

Google reveals it's not uncommon e.g.: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=118584071&page=1

I have a minor case of gyno and take milk thistle for general liver protectiion. I find that when i increase the dosage it causes my nips to be a little more puffy then usual. I currently just take a minimal dosage because of this. I also find that gingko biloba has a similar effect because of it's estrogenic qualities. I have no studies to back this up or anything, but i did isolate these two supps as the culprit for this reaction. Im not saying they were at all responsible for the gyno itself, just that they seem to make it look worse then it actually is. Take it for what it's worth i guess.

Again I think this may come back to my theory of total estrogenic load... increase it too much, whether the estrogens are "good" or "bad" and you might tip your body the wrong way ...something to be wary of with all these estrogenic supplements, especially in combination.

Reducing estrogen load seems to be the logical place to start, which is what I've started doing... removing xenoestrogens (plastic food containers, colognes, house hold cleaners, pesticides / go organic, good water filter, limit alcohol, eat certain fruit/veg etc. etc.). Doing that should take a significant burden off your liver.


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Re: DIM Results and Liver Detox

Post  goten574 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:59 pm

It's interesting you say Milk Thistle could cause gyno or make it worse. When I first noticed my gyno, around a year ago, I took NOW Foods Milk Thistle for the first time (2x 150mg daily) for liver and hair support. Around this time, I was also making various perfumes using essential oils, plus I was using a natural Peppermint shower gel as a body wash of which I added around 20-30 drops of Spearmint Essential Oil (in hopes it could reduce my body hair)

I actually posted a thread in this forum about Spearmint may be the reason for my gyno. In that thread, I also said it was very likely the Milk Thistle that brought this on. I think the combination of both did not help. I Still have half a bottle of NOW Foods Milk Thistle in my bedroom but I was too afraid to use it. So it's possible that Milk Thistle could cause Prolactin based gyno? because I thought of this and consumed daily 1200mg of Vitex (Chasteberry) for 3 months as I hear this can reverse Prolactin based gyno. Since I saw little to no improvement, I concluded that my gyno is Estrogen based.

It would be great to get my liver in good shape but what can I do without Milk Thistle? My main aim is to reverse this Gyno if it is at all possible. It's not major but it's certainly there and it's bothering me.

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Re: DIM Results and Liver Detox

Post  AS54 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:28 pm

Columbo, I'm interested in your ideas about the total estrogen load.

Whodathunkit,

I don't think the methylation cycle can be ignored when it comes to liver detox. And there are many genetic mutations that can lead to a problem in the methylation cycle, as it has so many steps.

I would recommend learning about Dr. Yasko and her protocol. She actually uses a test that can show if you have mutations in the specific genes related to methylation:
http://www.dramyyasko.com/our-unique-approach/ Keep in mind that she treats autistic children if you visit the site; she's finding methylation is involved in all sorts of autoimmune conditions.

As far as the regime I've been doing, looks like:

Round 1 : 10 AM (after exercise)
- Milk Thistle (Jarrow Formulas, 2 capsules - 300 mg)
- Dandelion Greens (Nature's Way, 3 capsules - 1.75 grams)
- Phosphatidyl Choline (Country Life, 1 capsule - 450 mg)
- Tuarine (Source Naturals, 1 tablet - 500 mg)
- Methionine (Country Life, 1 capusle - 500 mg)
- TMG (Swanson, 1 capsule - 1 gram)
- Super Source No-Shot B6, B12, Folic Acid (1 tablet)
- DIM (Source Naturals, 2 capsules - 200 grams)
- ZMA (Swanson, 3 capsules - 2.4 grams)

Round 2 : 11:30 AM
- Bentonite Clay (Yerba Prima, 1 tablespoon)
- Psyllium Husk Fiber (Yerba Prima, 1 tablespoon - 5 grams)

10 PM:
- Same as round 1, except no methylation factors, so cut out the TMG and the Super Source No Shot. No ZMA.

11:30 PM:
- Round 2 again.

I'm not sure that this is the optimal way to go about this, but I'm really just experimenting on myself for now. I've only been doing this about a month.


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Re: DIM Results and Liver Detox

Post  scottyc33 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:45 pm

For Liver health I highly recommend a product called Liv52.

It is one of the few internal supplements I've taken where I saw concrete tangible positive effects - and I've taken a lot of supplements Smile.


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Other
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SUPERFOODS: Energy First and Sun Warrior Protein, Dessicated Liver, Concentrace, Colostrum, Brewers Yeast, Fermented Cod Liver & High Vitamin Butter Oil

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Re: DIM Results and Liver Detox

Post  Columbo on Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:27 pm

Came across this today, which perfectly mirrors my experience from taking supplements that have weak estrogenic effect, which is why things like milk thistle, grape seed, resevartol, green tea, gingko, heck even rooibos tea etc. taken long enough or in large enough quantities eventually sparked a gyno flare-up:

The controversy about plant estrogens or phytoestrogens

There seems to be a common misconception in the natural health community that women with high estrogen levels should take phytoestrogen (plant estrogen) because phytoestrogens are "protective estrogens" which reduce estrogenic activity. It is believed that phytoestrogens compete with endogenous estrogens for estrogen receptors. When the estrogen receptors are occupied by phytoestrogens, cell divisions are reduced because phytoestrogens are "weak estrogens". This theory made sense to me until my own experience showed otherwise. With my endometriosis, my pain level was a measurement for my condition. When I tried Don Quei, Licorice, Ginseng and Royal Jelly, I did feel better initially for a few weeks because they helped my blood circulation. As I continued to take these remedies, my pain would come back with a vengeance, more severe than before. I realized that weak estrogens could add up significantly if given enough time. I believe that many women are misled by initial feelings of wellness without realizing that longer periods of usage actually makes the problem worse. Many other endometriosis sufferers that I know also have had similar experiences with phytoestrogen. After my personal experience, my belief is that weak plant estrogens may replace our own more potent estrogens for receptor sites, but our own estrogens still have to go somewhere if the liver is incapable of eliminating them.

In Townsend Letters for Doctors and Patients (January, 1997 issue), Ray Peat, a renowned biologist in the U.S., stated that "the concept of a protective estrogen is very similar to the idea of protective mutagens or protective carcinogens". He mentioned that "Alexander Lipshuts demonstrated that a continuous, weak estrogenic stimulus was immensely effective in producing first fibromas, then cancer, in one organ after another, and the effect was not limited to the reproductive system". For example, the brain and liver, which also have estrogen receptors, may grow tumours too.

Interestingly, one of the three common estrogens, Estriol, has similar properties. Being a less potent cell stimulant, Estriol was once classified as an estrogen antagonist. In the book Estrogens in the Environment [see Reference 1 at the end of this section], it was mentioned "because it failed to induce breast tumors in susceptible rodent strains and appeared to block such induction by Estradiol and Estrone, it was considered to be a safe estrogen". However, later studies showed that Estriol was safe only if it was administered as a single injection. A continuous administration of Estriol showed the same responses from that induced by Estradiol which is the most potent estrogen. Continuous administration of Estriol was also shown to induce breast tumors in rodents.
...and, worth noting too (interesting she's list carrots)...

How to reduce estrogen levels and stagnation of blood circulation?

Perform daily physical exercise, which reduces estrogen production and stress, and also reduces stagnation. It promotes a healthy circulatory system and activates the liver. I found the Chinese exercise Y-Dan, which I have been doing every morning for years, is very beneficial. However, it does not have to be any particular kind of exercise, as long as it involves a lot of deep breathing and stretching.
Learn to relax and reduce stress. Relaxation opens up blood vessels and relaxes different organs.
Perform cleansing and strengthening of the liver in order to eliminate estrogen more efficiently.
Avoid or minimize estrogen-containing foods or herbs. Foods that weaken the liver or kidneys as mentioned in Section 1 of this article should also be avoided.

HERBS
Anise, hops, fennel, black cohosh, milk thistle, clover, red clover, Don Quai, licorice, ginseng, royal jelly, peony, nettle, sage, fenugreek, evening primrose oil, burdock, chamomiles, rhubarb

FOODS
French bean, date palm, dates, garlic, pomegranate, apple, soyabean, chick pea, cherry, alfalfa, soya sprouts, cow pea, green beans, red beans, split peas, flaxseed, raspberry, carrot and squash (both have beta carotene)

Generally I have found that estrogen contents in foods are less than in herbs.

http://www.sensiblehealth.com/Journey-04.xhtml

She also has some stuff on liver cleansing, if you click on the dropdown on that link

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Re: DIM Results and Liver Detox

Post  Columbo on Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:30 pm

More interesting stuff from that site, a comment from a use,r from another forum, summing up her info for dealing with liver/estrogen:

I have corresponded with Julia Chong a lady that runs sensiblehealth.com dealing with liver issues and estradiol metabolism and she claims the best way she uses to lower estradiol is using these two tinctures which increase the amount of eatrdsiol metabolised and reduced in the body. They help the liver lower estradiol similliar to DIM but apparently more effectively. The chionese bitter is a combo of bulperum and genatin which detoxes liver and balances hormones and the other tincture is coptis which increases bile flow to remove stangant and old estradiol. I have used and they seem to work. I got better results erection and libidowise than i did with DIM but i want to be sure these were responible and not the other herbal concoctions i took.

Whenever i am feeling my best in terms of mood, energy and overall sense of well being is when i have the best morning wood and erectile performance as well as reduced gymo. This tells me that e2 is in range and has lowered. I have also been on a herbal restart fro the past 10 months so wanted to see if anyone else has noticed benefits with chinese bitters and coptis tinctures or are my results solely down to the restart. I know when i added the bitters my chest fimed up. Next came more atronger morning wood and a stronger libido. I have since been off and the effects remain.

Julia chong said Chinese bitters and coptis are used on women to lower their estrogen domianance and has been used for years and is effective.

...

It simply improves the natural eradicating of estradiol by the liver whereas armidex is a chemical that stops the conversion to estradiol. I must have sluggish liver hence why my estradiol was high.

http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?17797-Chinese-bitters-and-coptis-for-lowering-estradiol

Quong says ...

The liver eliminates estrogens through bile and urine. Being an effective bile flow stimulator, Coptis helps the liver to eliminate estrogen more efficiently by carrying more estrogens out of the body through bile ... One of our products, "Chinese Bitters", has been used successfully to induce menstruation by cleansing the liver and eliminating estrogens more efficiently. A woman in Hawaii had no period for 18 months. She had her period in 15 days after she started using "Chinese Bitters". Another young woman in Ontario, Canada had no period for 3 years. She used "Chinese Bitters" for more than a month without success. However, when she used "Coptis" (another of our products) in conjunction with "Chinese Bitters", her period started in 5 days. The liver eliminates estrogens through bile and urine. Being an effective bile flow stimulator, Coptis helps the liver to eliminate estrogen more efficiently by carrying more estrogens out of the body through bile.

Some info on Bitters...

Milk Thistle belongs to the group of herbs called Chinese Bitters too. Here's a list:

Angelica root (Angelica archangelica)
Bitter orange (Citrus x aurantium)
Blessed thistle (Cnicus benedictus)
Burdock (Arctium lappa)
Bupleurum
Centaury (Centaurium erythraea)
Coffee (Coffea spp.)
Dandelion (Taraxacum officinale)
Devil's claw (Harpagophytum procumbens)
Gentian (Gentiana lutea)
Ginger (Zingiber officinale)
Goldenseal (Hydrastis canadensis)
Hops (Humulus lupulus)
Horehound (Marrubium vulgare)
Milk thistle (Silybum marianum)
Rhubarb (Rheum spp.)
Rue (Ruta spp.)
Wormwood (Artemisia absinthium)
Yarrow (Achillea millefolium)

Some bitters can exert an estrogenic effect, Milk Thistle is one. Some don't. Julia Chong recommends Gentian and Bupleurum.

Some quick research says Bupleurum may be more potent for liver health than Milk Thistle but with the benefit of not being estrogenic like MT can be; infact it's anti-estrogenic.

Interesting comment on an iHerb.com Bupleurum review....

Goes well with juice or just plain water. Not as bad as other tinctures. I take this to help my liver with excess hormones. Can't really tell you if it does exactly that or not. I have used dandelion and I like it, but it makes me pee alot. I can't use milk thistle because it is mildly estrogenic and I don't need any more.

I might give these a bash.


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