Re: Are Hairs in balding area different or is it solely from the environment?

SlowMoe on Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:23 pm

J987 wrote:
SlowMoe wrote:If circulation were downstream then we would bald on the sides of our head. The parts that thin are at the limits of the scalp vascular. Tight scalp chokes off enough blood flow to allow androgens to become a nuisance, and health problems to manifest as hairloss.

But what you are failing to see is why does the fatty tissue deteriorate? Why do men acquire tight scalp, why did circulation begin to deteriorate. We werent preset this way. These things are a product of inflammation, the inflammation is a product of deficiencies and toxicity.Circulation is down stream from deficiencies, toxicity, AND inflammation... You will probably try to find a reason to argue this and I am curious what your response will be...

Why doesn't inflammation manifest on the sides of our heads?

987 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:41 pm

SlowMoe wrote:
J987 wrote:
SlowMoe wrote:If circulation were downstream then we would bald on the sides of our head. The parts that thin are at the limits of the scalp vascular. Tight scalp chokes off enough blood flow to allow androgens to become a nuisance, and health problems to manifest as hairloss.

But what you are failing to see is why does the fatty tissue deteriorate? Why do men acquire tight scalp, why did circulation begin to deteriorate. We werent preset this way. These things are a product of inflammation, the inflammation is a product of deficiencies and toxicity.Circulation is down stream from deficiencies, toxicity, AND inflammation... You will probably try to find a reason to argue this and I am curious what your response will be...

Why doesn't inflammation manifest on the sides of our heads?

Who said it doesnt, maybe it does, but the galea 'is' more affected 'when' it does due to issues previously discussed.
So what must we do? Not develop the chronic inflammation in the first place! How do we do that? Prevent toxicity,deficiencies, free radical damage and stress. How does those things stop/prevent inflammation, and papilla damage? Answered within many of the posts on this forum especially by C/S.Imo Keep doing all your manual stuff, but put even more effort into your diet and supplementation, you can only seek to benefit by doing it, and not just in hair, but in totality of well being...

SlowMoe on Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:16 pm

Usually the simplest solution, is the correct one.

"The galea is more affected when inflammation does strike"
Why is the galea more affected? Why are the areas at the furthest reaches of the scalps vascular system, in the areas where skin is tightest most affected?
I don't think it's hard to figure out.

Do you not agree that the galea region is more susceptible because the blood flow is weakest, and skin is tightest?

"Why is the skin tight on the scalp?"
Mostly stress IMO

"Why is the fatty layer depleted"
Probably the same reason the hair is depleted.

Truth is, we can speculate all day about this. I'm following my gut on this one.
It's obvious that the ones loosening their scalps and encouraging blood flow are the ones getting results. I'm not saying other issues are irrelevant, I just think that if you clear up environmental issues (bring oxygen levels up to par with the hair on the sides of our head), that our hair quality would be similar, redardless of physical health.

987 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:47 pm

SlowMoe wrote:Usually the simplest solution, is the correct one.

Why is the galea more affected? Why are the areas at the furthest reaches of the scalps vascular system, in the areas where skin is tightest most affected?
I don't think it's hard to figure out.
Do you not agree that the galea region is more susceptible because the blood flow is weakest, and skin is tightest?

I have actually speculated several times in this thread as to why I think the galea is more susceptible which is in agreement with you there, this is not a point that is being debated. Susceptibility and vulnerability of damage is one thing, what I am trying to point out is in regards to preventing the damage or allowing the damage to further through mitigating the cause of the damage. Cause is not due to a deficiency in performing manual methods of scalp stimulation, but to be clear, im not saying that that does not help, but I view it as more of a symptom treatment option.

"Why is the skin tight on the scalp?"
Mostly stress IMO
As far as I know, stress causes hair loss through a different function, otherwise everyone would suffer because anyone can have stress in common, and even if your thoughts there were true, it'd only be true for a percentage of people given that not everyone's hair loss was caused from stress, like me in example.

"Why is the fatty layer depleted"
Probably the same reason the hair is depleted.

Yes, which is likely due to inflammation activity.

Truth is, we can speculate all day about this. I'm following my gut on this one.
It's obvious that the ones loosening their scalps and encouraging blood flow are the ones getting results. I'm not saying other issues are irrelevant, I just think that if you clear up environmental issues (bring oxygen levels up to par with the hair on the sides of our head), that our hair quality would be similar, regardless of physical health.

Possibly, but first we must understand why the galea was even able to deteriorate to a state of non hair growth to begin with. Which I am sure is due to the explanation of deficiency/toxicity=inflammation which allows for a chain of factors that may lead to your thoughts on scalp tightness/ decrease capillary health etc..
Also you still havent linked me the definite results from those whom are solely loosening their scalps, Ive read claims here and there but nothing with solid success numbers, or real pics of full regrowth capability.Also consider that ppl gettin results from encouraging blood flow and loosening scalp, doesnt suggest that they are the only ones who are gettin results because thats simply not true and would be quite unmeasurable anyways.

The true issue of this debate is that your views on this topic have lead your approach seemingly more and more narrow, and your delivery reflects that. As nice as it would be for hair loss to be simply cured by manual methods alone in "everyone", there is more that needs to be done beyond just doing that, and I dont see why there is such evasion from the usefulness of other strategies regardless if they are lesser or more effective. No on here is telling you to take propecia or minox, but rather discussing the potential of supplemental materials that significantly boost your dietary efforts to improve health and bring entire body to optimization and homeostasis. If what you are doing now is "working" for you then by no means is anyone trying to stop you, we all have the same agenda here for the most part. But dont close your mind to other options capable of giving you even faster, and/or better results, especially when its in addition to what your doing. Also one size simply does not fit all, we all lose hair from similar yet different reasons, and there naturally will be variations in the approach in fixing it case by case, which is why there is always individual consultation in something of this magnitude. I have no issue employing the manual methods myself, despite it not being needed in my case, because i find it more productive to keep my efforts flexible and capable of attacking all angles for the most efficient result, that is most logical to me...

SlowMoe on Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:20 pm

J987 wrote:
SlowMoe wrote:Usually the simplest solution, is the correct one.

Why is the galea more affected? Why are the areas at the furthest reaches of the scalps vascular system, in the areas where skin is tightest most affected?
I don't think it's hard to figure out.
Do you not agree that the galea region is more susceptible because the blood flow is weakest, and skin is tightest?

I have actually speculated several times in this thread as to why I think the galea is more susceptible, this is not a point that is being debated. Susceptibility and vulnerability of damage is one thing, what I am trying to point out is in regards to preventing the damage or allowing the damage to further through mitigating the cause of the damage. Cause is not due to a deficiency in performing manual methods of scalp stimulation, but to be clear, im not saying that that does not help, but I view it as more of a symptom treatment option.

"Why is the skin tight on the scalp?"
Mostly stress IMO
As far as I know, stress causes hair loss through a different function, otherwise everyone would suffer because anyone can have stress in common, and even if your thoughts there were true, it'd only be true for a percentage of people given that not everyone's hair loss was caused from stress, like me in example.

"Why is the fatty layer depleted"
Probably the same reason the hair is depleted.

Yes, which is likely due to inflammation activity.

Truth is, we can speculate all day about this. I'm following my gut on this one.
It's obvious that the ones loosening their scalps and encouraging blood flow are the ones getting results. I'm not saying other issues are irrelevant, I just think that if you clear up environmental issues (bring oxygen levels up to par with the hair on the sides of our head), that our hair quality would be similar, regardless of physical health.

Possibly, but first we must understand why the galea was even able to deteriorate to a state of non hair growth to begin with. Which I am sure is due to the explanation of deficiency/toxicity=inflammation which allows for a chain of factors that may lead to your thoughts on scalp tightness/ decrease capillary health etc..
Also you still havent linked me the definite results from those whom are solely loosening their scalps, Ive read claims here and there but nothing with solid numbers, or full regrowth capability from what Ive seen.Also consider that ppl gettin results from encouraging blood flow and loosening scalp, doesnt suggest that they are the only ones who are gettin results because thats simply not true and would be quite unmeasurable anyways.

The true issue of this debate is that your views on this topic have lead your approach seemingly more and more narrow, and your delivery reflects that. As nice as it would be for hair loss to be simply cured by manual methods alone in "everyone", there is more that needs to be done beyond just doing that, and I dont see why there is such evasion from the usefulness of other strategies regardless if they are lesser or more effective. No on here is telling you to take propecia or minox, but rather discussing the potential of supplemental materials that significantly boost your dietary efforts to improve health and bring entire body to optimization and homeostasis. If what you are doing now is "working" for you then by no means is anyone trying to stop you, we all have the same agenda here for the most part. But dont close your mind to other options capable of giving you even faster, and/or better results, especially when its in addition to what your doing. Also one size simply does not fit all, we all lose hair from similar yet different reasons, and there naturally will be variations in the approach in fixing it case by case, which is why there is always individual consultation in something of this magnitude. I have no issue employing the manual methods myself, despite it not being needed in my case, because i find it more productive to keep my efforts flexible and capable of attacking all angles for the most efficient result, that is most logical to me...

If the scalp environment in the galea region was the same as the sides of the head (loose, plentiful blood supply) we would not go bald, no matter how much inflammation we had. Low oxygen causes androgen sensitivity. Allows many pathogens to thrive. Now you tell me what makes more sense, inflammation coming after androgen sensitivity, after pathogenic invasion or before?

anthonyspencer54 on Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:05 am

I'm not sure if it is true that we become more androgen sensitive during oxygen deprivation. I don't think that has ever been shown. What has been shown is that androgen receptors can be upregulated by inflammation. The androgen receptor is capable of promoting inflammation, as it does in the dermal papilla, but inflammation an also increase expression of the androgen receptor.

And bacteria don't invade just because a low oxygen environment is induced. The main commensal bacteria of the sebum are propionibacteria and sometimes staphylococcus strains. These are anaerobic organisms and they are always with us. They are the same that caused acne for us as teens. In my opinion, it is the androgens effect on sebum metabolism, with a concurrent hyperkeratinization, that causes overproduction of sebum and the ductal blockage prevents proper movement. These bacteria flourish there and the normal breakdown of sebum fatty acids is effected. This invites the inflammatory response.

987 on Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:26 am

If the scalp environment in the galea region was the same as the sides of the head (loose, plentiful blood supply) we would not go bald, no matter how much inflammation we had. Low oxygen causes androgen sensitivity. Allows many pathogens to thrive. Now you tell me what makes more sense, inflammation coming after androgen sensitivity, after pathogenic invasion or before?

Low oxygen environment is still a product of deficiency, toxicity, and inflammation. They produce the low oxygen environment within the galea, along with else where in the body that is most susceptible, certain foods and minerals have a lot to do with PH and oxygenation of the body on a cellular level. You wouldnt even have hands, flesh or energy to even massage your scalp in the first place if it werent sustained by your diet. What we put IN our bodies always comes first. Ignore-ance of the importance and impact of diet is one reason mainstream medicine is a joke most of the time to me.

Let me ask you something, do you believe manually doing stuff with your scalp overall stimulates more oxygen and blood flow to the galea than someone who lived a very active lifestyle with much running, exercise, clean air, water and a powerful diet?
Even in a human being more genetically susceptible to developing mpb, do you really think that with such prime environmental and dietary conditions, dense with nutrients and minerals throughout the entire life of this being, that there would be a development of mpb to necessitate this being doing scalp massages and what not to keep hair growing?

I can easily see why diet is shunned, or not looked upon as primary source of curing their deteriorated conditions, because once again, all of our food is grown in extremely toxic and deficient conditions, much of which makes you even worse off. People on propecia thinking they need that chemical castration shit to cure their hair loss while they are living and breathing every day with massive almost life long vitamin and mineral deficiencies in their bodies. Not to even discuss processed foods, but our soils are depleted due to toxic chemicals and over farming production and mass consumption, and after decades of living under these conditions are bodies start to have genetic expressions due to its susceptibility in design. For some they may get obese easily, for others diabetes, or cancers. Maybe these deficiencies will cause you to developed mpb, maybe not, but most issues within the body are still a product of toxicity and deficiency, other than physical damage, or born with genetic issues, I see those two reasons as the only real reasons for most shit...
More on soil depletion http://www.zoeliving.com/Soil_Mineral_Depletion_s/53.htm
something quick on iodine- http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller20.html
Without knowing all the specifics, there is much info floating around that dives into this issue, and I think its an issue that is not taken seriously as it is, and often over looked in regards to importance.
Farmers once upon a time knew and emphasized the importance of remineralizing their soils, and many people who did this shared excellent health and lived very long productive lives due to such knowledge of food. Supplements, many are fraudulent, or provide weak results that turn you off from them, sure, you just have to research thoroughly, but supplements are exactly that, they are supplementing what should be in our diet that is not, and a little pill may or may not be abundant enough to fix your deficiencies alone, but either way they can be excellent boosters towards the direction of health.

Once again i am not taking away from the benefit of doing manual methods for mpb, but I seriously only believe the manual stuff is needed for people who already have fibrosis and destroyed galea areas. Not all hair loss sufferers have fibrosis and tight scalps {yet?}, thus all of the blood flow theories are down stream, and are more important for someone later into the process of mpb, a process which I believe takes a LOT of inflammation to get there...Im almost positive if most of you were implementing much of what is covered on this site, and perfecting the diet and environmental factors before you ever got past a nw2 or3 you wouldn't need to rub your heads every day or shave it off. This is definitely a process that best responds in its infancy.

“The alarming fact is that food – fruits and vegetables and grains – now being raised on millions of acres of land that no longer contains enough of certain needed nutrients, are starving us no matter how much we eat of them.” U S Senate Document 264, 1936

schpiloch123 on Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:50 am

Okay so how do you explain all of the fat prepubescent fat kids who have full heads of hair? Why do they not suffer aga? Why only older men? Could it not be die to a lack of nutrients from lack of blood flow?

SlowMoe on Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:07 am

The logical explanation is that tight scalp compromises the oxygenation of the scalp tissue starting at the extremities of the vasculare and works it's way to the entire path of tension. It is the simplest and most logical explanation. I don't see why everyone wants to theorize and over complicate the situation and ignore the most logical idea. Just because CS and the other mods have had MINOR success using other methods, and you followed in their footsteps, you ignore the obvious.

987 on Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:12 am

schpiloch123 wrote:Okay so how do you explain all of the fat prepubescent fat kids who have full heads of hair? Why do they not suffer aga? Why only older men? Could it not be die to a lack of nutrients from lack of blood flow?

In my opinion it just means their bodies do not have enough 'free' androgenic load to initiate "early" scalp deterioration with their deficiencies etc. There can be a significant difference in natural scalp vasculature, capillary density, galea size ( upper head size) that seems to not be talked much about, and all of those things factor into your vulnerability. Everyone's bodies have different genetic expressions to a situation, for example my body does not put on fat no matter what I do. I bet I can give myself cancer and diabetes before I ever get over 15% body fat, Im about 6% now, were as if my brothers diet goes south even a little bit and his body fat percentage gets unfavorable. But on the contrary, my brother has never experienced hair loss, and I have, so we are just wired different..
I am much more anabolic in appearance/performance than he is though, which could be a factor to why more hormones could induce inflammation in scalp easier... Also remember there are other factors with androgens that come into play like shbg, and some men naturally convert less dht anyways. I also now believe Dht is only problematic under certain conditions but not always. What is for sure though is that optimal health IS optimal health and we should all strive for it. I highly doubt being in optimal health would allow for things like hair loss no matter how susceptible you naturally are to it. I bet almost everyone with hair loss is farther from optimal health than they realize, even if they eat "organic", take a couple supplements and exercise here and there, apparently it takes a lot of work to restore optimal health in the average person...

anthonyspencer54 on Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:14 am

That's what I was saying in the earlier post. The pathophysiology of AGA is the same as acne, but except for cystic acne (the really severe kind), we don't see the fibrosis and hyperkeratinization that we see in AGA. What is the factor that is causing that fibrosis in the scalp? That is what I'd like to know. Given the fact that distribution of hair is greater on the head than on the face, I'd expect the level of local inflammation to be greater in the scalp. The reason prepubescent boys are having AGA is that it is a process of fibrosis that occurs over time, it takes a great deal of time for those follicles to miniaturize. But we do see exceptions. Some men begin losing hair shortly after puberty. It all depends on the individual.

anthonyspencer54 on Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:21 am

I would also like to make another observation. I have keratosis pilaris. It is an inflammation of the hair follicles of the skin, generally on the arms and legs. I only have it on the upper arm. But again, it shares similar pathophysiology with acne and MPB. There is a connection. It did not begin for me until puberty, it flares up coincidentally when my sebum production flares up: sugary meals, food sensitivities, etc.

With KP, In in androgen mediated way, the hair follicle over-produces keratin which plugs the sebaceous ducts and creates inflammation. In my mind this is very similar to what is happening in MPB.

The interesting observation: sufficient time in the sun virtually makes keratosis pilaris disappear. I'm not saying the sun is the cure for baldness (obviously keratosis pilaris isn't exaclty the same), but there is something there. Perhaps adequate exposure to sunlight is important for controlling the bacterial component of keratosis pilaris. Could it have a similar effect (something vitamin D related) in the human scalp? I know that my hairloss accelerated immensely when I went through my hat phase.

Let's examine that. Less exposure to sunlight and it generally produced more oiliness. If it is what I believe is largely a bacterial induced inflammation, that would provide an excellent environment for them.

987 on Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:25 am

SlowMoe wrote:The logical explanation is that tight scalp compromises the oxygenation of the scalp tissue starting at the extremities of the vasculare and works it's way to the entire path of tension. It is the simplest and most logical explanation. I don't see why everyone wants to theorize and over complicate the situation and ignore the most logical idea. Just because CS and the other mods have had MINOR success using other methods, and you followed in their footsteps, you ignore the obvious.

So according to him, he started loosing hair at 19 and still is far from bald with full coverage, and hes probably almost twice your age, I don't consider it minor success, especially with the fact that when hair loss kicks in for many of us it goes really fast.. If you got his results from your manual efforts you'd probably be parading around with how great of a job it does, not to mention the manual efforts does nothing for my endocrine system, or my libido, or any other system in my body other than my scalp. Btw my thoughts on this matter are far from over complicated, I think its pretty simple at this point, I narrow most of it down to inflammation. So if someone was even able to statistically prove to you that say hair loss (in men AND women ) has doubled, or hell even tripled in occurrence in proportion to population, and also initiated a decade or more early in the current generations versus many generations before us, would you then hypothesize that more people are being born with tight scalps and poor circulation? You start off your theory with tight scalp but obviously that isn't the first thing unless we were born that way? How do you propose we get a tight scalp and fatty tissue depletion in the first place then?

987 on Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:33 am

anthonyspencer54 wrote:I would also like to make another observation. I have keratosis pilaris. It is an inflammation of the hair follicles of the skin, generally on the arms and legs. I only have it on the upper arm. But again, it shares similar pathophysiology with acne and MPB. There is a connection. It did not begin for me until puberty, it flares up coincidentally when my sebum production flares up: sugary meals, food sensitivities, etc.

With KP, In in androgen mediated way, the hair follicle over-produces keratin which plugs the sebaceous ducts and creates inflammation. In my mind this is very similar to what is happening in MPB.

The interesting observation: sufficient time in the sun virtually makes keratosis pilaris disappear. I'm not saying the sun is the cure for baldness (obviously keratosis pilaris isn't exaclty the same), but there is something there. Perhaps adequate exposure to sunlight is important for controlling the bacterial component of keratosis pilaris. Could it have a similar effect (something vitamin D related) in the human scalp? I know that my hairloss accelerated immensely when I went through my hat phase.

Let's examine that. Less exposure to sunlight and it generally produced more oiliness. If it is what I believe is largely a bacterial induced inflammation, that would provide an excellent environment for them.

Im with you on most of what you are saying in this thread, sounds very rational to me and knowledgeable.
But one point didnt register with me, so are you assuming that your hair loss accelerated because of your hat blocking sun light to your scalp? The sun just needs to soak any part of the skin to give its results, and what about people with thick long hair that probably blocks out sun from touching the scalp anyways like me, probably not a factor.

LawOfThelema on Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:53 am

SlowMoe wrote:
J987 wrote:
SlowMoe wrote:If circulation were downstream then we would bald on the sides of our head. The parts that thin are at the limits of the scalp vascular. Tight scalp chokes off enough blood flow to allow androgens to become a nuisance, and health problems to manifest as hairloss.

But what you are failing to see is why does the fatty tissue deteriorate? Why do men acquire tight scalp, why did circulation begin to deteriorate. We werent preset this way. These things are a product of inflammation, the inflammation is a product of deficiencies and toxicity.Circulation is down stream from deficiencies, toxicity, AND inflammation... You will probably try to find a reason to argue this and I am curious what your response will be...

Why doesn't inflammation manifest on the sides of our heads?

Are you using "inflammation" as a synonym for "balding"? I get inflammation on the sides and back of my head.