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Curcumin : The Natural / CS

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Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  europe on Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:13 am

hey....

I think you have already discussed of this...but.....since CS decided to put in the mix...

NAtural, in your regimen, you tale Curcumin + Resveratrol , because of an italian study...

So my question is to the natural and CS in particular :
But, DESPITE THE PRICE ( considering we do not give a shit about the price of things), would you go gor the Life Extension, Super BIO-Curcumin, 400 mg, 60 Veggie Caps ( proned by Brian) , or the Jarrow Formulas, Curcumin 95, 500 mg, 60 Capsules

please elaborate ( as would say Eric...)
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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  The Natural on Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:44 am

europe wrote:hey....

I think you have already discussed of this...but.....since CS decided to put in the mix...

NAtural, in your regimen, you tale Curcumin + Resveratrol , because of an italian study...

So my question is to the natural and CS in particular :
But, DESPITE THE PRICE ( considering we do not give a shit about the price of things), would you go gor the Life Extension, Super BIO-Curcumin, 400 mg, 60 Veggie Caps ( proned by Brian) , or the Jarrow Formulas, Curcumin 95, 500 mg, 60 Capsules

please elaborate ( as would say Eric...)


Europe, I have had success with Jarrow's curcumin, so I have decided to continue using it. Several years ago, I tried LEF's curcumin (with bioperine), and it made me terribly sick to my stomach. But the Super Bio-Curcumin looks good. And if I didn't care about the price of things, I probably would give it a try.

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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  CausticSymmetry on Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:50 am

europe - It's all about dosage.

Super-Bio Curcumin BCM-95 from Life Extension has almost a 7 times better absorption than other 95% Curcuminoid
products.

So while Jarrow at first glance appears to be a better value, you would need to swallow just over 6 of these to equal
one Super-Bio Curcumin BCM-95 from Life Extension.

Taking one capsule morning and evening will give you near 24-hour protection.

Also, since curcumin was shown to have a concentration-dependent decrease in TGF-beta1 expression, this is especially important.

Here's another study on curcumin relating to aldosterone.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=19194552
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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  CausticSymmetry on Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:52 am

The Natural - Glad you chimed in here, I was curious what kind you were using.

How capsules of Jarrow curcumin do you use?
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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  The Natural on Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:08 pm

IH,

Been taking 1-2 of Jarrow's curcumin a day. LEF's looks much better, though. What are your thoughts about this: http://myelomahope.blogspot.com/2008/02/regimen-correction.html

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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  CausticSymmetry on Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:10 pm

Some months ago I came across a study on curcumin, I can't locate it for whatever reason and it was related to cancer, but it suggested that short-term high bioavailability is necessary, but long term it is not as important.

I will keep looking, but in any event, is this is correct then a standard 95% curcumin product my suffice long term.
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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  CausticSymmetry on Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:15 pm

The Natural - Wow, makes you wonder doesn't it? I can't help but feel sensations of over hype when I read Life Extension's material sometimes.

I looked another another report form the actual makers of BCM-95, which seemed good. If I can located that study I mentioned in the just the previous post, it may suggest that using LEF's Super Bio as a loading dose maybe sufficient, followed by a regular 95% curcumin.
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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  CausticSymmetry on Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:25 pm

I looked in several places on the dose issue. Each time with respect to TGF-beta, Curcumin had a dose-dependent reduction.
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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  europe on Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:39 pm

hey...CS and natural, tthat was my first question...knowing that the LEF's is 7th timies superior, as you said, IT'S ALL ABOUT DOSAGE...

And, still, ther's an italian study....CURCUMIN + RESVERETROL...so, can't we know the bio avability or chat !!??!!??
the idea is to get to this dosage...

On my side, i think i'm gonna start with JArrow's brand and take 2 caps of each REGULAR curcumin and resveretrol....One of each in the morning, one of each in the evening....and see what happens....before lasering....( special dedicace for you, the natural ;-) )
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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  The Natural on Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:44 pm

Yes IH, sometimes I feel there is a bit of "over hyping" that takes place at LEF. They were caught a year or so ago by ConsumerLab for not putting the stated amount of resveratrol in their capsules. But overall, I still think they make quality products (e.g. green tea extract).

The "dose-dependent" information on curcumin was very helpful. Thank you.


europe wrote:hey...CS and natural, tthat was my first question...knowing that the LEF's is 7th timies superior, as you said, IT'S ALL ABOUT DOSAGE...

And, still, ther's an italian study....CURCUMIN + RESVERETROL...so, can't we know the bio avability or chat !!??!!??
the idea is to get to this dosage...

On my side, i think i'm gonna start with JArrow's brand and take 2 caps of each REGULAR curcumin and resveretrol....One of each in the morning, one of each in the evening....and see what happens....before lasering....( special dedicace for you, the natural ;-) )

Europe Very Happy,

I hope the curcumin-resveratrol combination helps your hair and scalp, brother. Please keep us updated.

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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  Joejoebaggins on Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:29 am

IH & CS,

Why do you think Res & Curcumin have such a synergy?

Besides blocking COX-2 and both speeding up phase II liver detox do they share any other qualities together?

Also, is Resveratrols anti-aromatase attributes dose dependent? Would 100mg of the jarrow res suppress estrogen that much?
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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  lund on Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:47 am

Most of the folks at imminst.org take 1g+ resveratol (and I think of the best quality) for the expected benefits...

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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  CausticSymmetry on Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:47 am

Joejoebaggins - In male rats, Resveratrol increases sperm count and testosterone significantly. The dosage in these rats was 20 mg/kg of trans-resveratrol. That translates to about 1,400 milligrams for a man who weighs around 150 pounds.

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/4/757

For over a year now I've been getting an email from the makers of Longevinex who extol the virtues of their Longevinex Resveratrol formula.

Here's an excerpt from one of their recent mailings where they have stated that high-dose resveratrol is not practical or necessary. They also say that a complex of other substances, namely Quercetin, and IP6 allows it to activate significantly more genes. Cpio in another thread posted something from Longvinex mentioning this fact.

Researchers affiliated with the University of Wisconsin conducted a global gene array study comparing calorie restriction, plain resveratrol and a uniquely patented array of molecules (resveratrol, quercetin, IP6 rice bran) found in Longevinex®. At doses of resveratrol 17-320 times lower than prior studies, Longevinex® activated 9-fold more longevity genes than plain resveratrol or a calorie restricted diet. [Experimental Gerontology 2008 Sept; 43(9):859-66]

Here is more of the article:

The most glaring discrepancy was the bottle of resveratrol pills shown on air. A picture of the bottle, provided by the pharmaceutical company interviewed by 60 MINUTES, has been captured and reproduced below. It’s not a drug at all.

Notice its label says “dietary supplement” and “250 mg per capsule” on the label. This is not the SRT501 5000 mg plain resveratrol “drug” (microencapsulated, stabilized, emulsified) that was first used in human clinical trials (see side-by-side photos). It’s difficult to know whether the label shown on 60 MINUTES was just made up for television viewing, or is an actual product on the drawing board by the pharmaceutical company.

Why would a drug company, whose scientific experts claim 1000 bottles of red wine, (providing ~1000 milligrams of resveratrol) would be needed to produce a beneficial response in humans, make a pill that provides 1/4th that amount?

Is mega-dose resveratrol needed to prolong human life -- to achieve maximum lifespan -- as drug company researchers say? They don’t need longevity pills in France. Their traditionally made, dark, aged red wine confers super-longevity like that found in no other country.

Examine the following chart: Chart doesn't appear properly here, so will list the data instead:

In a nutshell, they list the number of Centenarians per country and France comes out on top, and they happen
to consume the most calories of these others as well.

Roger Corder, author of THE WINE DIET and professor of experimental therapeutics at the William Harvey Research Institute in England, says resveratrol couldn’t possibly be responsible for the health benefits derived from wine since a 5-ounce glass of wine might provide just 1 mg of resveratrol. It is the total polyphenolic (iron-binding) molecules, or about 60 mg per 5-ounce glass, that is responsible for the unusual health of wine drinkers.

Almost magically, low-doses of an array of molecules found in red wine (resveratrol, quercetin, catechin, kaempferol, gallic acid, ferulic acid) appear to work better than mega-dose resveratrol alone. A recent genomic study bears this out.

Researchers affiliated with the University of Wisconsin conducted a global gene array study comparing calorie restriction, plain resveratrol and a uniquely patented array of molecules (resveratrol, quercetin, IP6 rice bran) found in Longevinex®. At doses of resveratrol 17-320 times lower than prior studies, Longevinex® activated 9-fold more longevity genes than plain resveratrol or a calorie restricted diet. [Experimental Gerontology 2008 Sept; 43(9):859-66]

But again, something was amiss in the 60 MINUTES report. University-based researchers interviewed on 60 MINUTES were adept at showing how calorie restriction was working in primates (monkeys), but these very same researchers conducted the above gene array study and apparently never told CBS reporter Morley Safer that a nutriceutical matrix (Longevinex®) far exceeds the genomic effect produced by plainresveratrol or a limited calorie diet. The public was deprived of hearing about a major breakthrough in longevity science.

The point of a well designed red wine pill is to provide about the same quantity of mineral-controlling molecules provided in 3-to-5 glasses of red wine, or about 180-300 mg, without the alcohol, sugar, calories and sulfite preservatives, at a cost that ~5-6 times less than wine. A $6 bottle of wine would cost ~3-5 a day to provide health benefits. The cost of Longevinex®, a red wine pill designed to provide the equivalent amount of molecules found in 3-5 glasses of wine, is less than $1 per day.

Are the researchers intentionally misleading consumers, holding them off from taking resveratrol as a dietary supplement and telling them to wait for their stronger yet more expensive resveratrol-like drug? In earlier pronouncements, drug company spokespersons said resveratrol will take a back seat to more potent “new chemical entities” and the company never plans to introduce an anti-aging pill but rather to match resveratrol with an anti-diabetic drug or a statin cholesterol-lowering drug to treat disease.

The drug company claims it has stronger molecules that will activate the Sirtuin1 longevity gene, by 1000-fold, but these synthetic molecules are unproven, have never been used in humans, and already the drug company has switched from one of these so-called “new chemical entities” (SRT1720) to another (SRT2104) with no explanation as to why.

Furthermore, while drug company researchers said “we have a pill that can mimic the effects of a calorie restricted diet,” and were bragging on television that their resveratrol pill prolonged the life of laboratory mice, there was a big asterisk attached to that statement. The researchers were referring to a 2006 study published in Nature Magazine where mice were fed a 60% fat-calorie diet. But in 2008, a follow-up report published in the journal Cell Metabolism, this time conducted among mice fed a standard fat-calorie diet (25%), showed mega-dose resveratrol (360 and 1565 mg) shortened the lifespan of mice. The higher dose produced a shorter lifespan. [Cell Metabolism 2008 Aug; 8(2):157-68] It’s best to stick with red wine, or low doses in dietary supplements as found in red wine, preferably from an array of molecules rather than just resveratrol.

Mr. Safer ended the 60 MINUTES report by saying: “Everybody from plastic surgeons to snake oil salesmen have been promising a ticket to eternal youth for some time. So the prospect of a prescription pill that could trigger a longevity gene sounds too good to be true. …. It’s a pill that diets for you, a pill that activates the survival gene … a highly concentrated form of resveratrol, a virtual vineyard of healthy living,” added Safer.

The script read well. It captured the attention of millions. Yet the 60 MINUTES report was riddled with omissions, apparent intentional distortions and exaggerations
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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  Gibson on Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:15 am

This knee jerk effect of scientists continually isolating one element than realizing that it works in tandem with others seems like a pattern.

For this reason, I am encapsulating my own quality, organic turmeric and drinking wine.

In regard to these both, I'm inclined not to believe the hype. Seems like these supp manufacturer's are at a loss to better what is already available in original form.

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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  lund on Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:35 am

My understanding is that Curcumin is extremely poorly absorbed by humans - it is very quickly excreted by the system and byitself it has a very short life within the human plasma ~ like minutes or so. How can taking more of the same be any helpful? (regular brand o5 500mg BCM95 vs LFE's) - if the body is not able to hold any of it, what difference does it make?

At leas the following article (indeed old) says adding piperine to curcumin increases the rate of aborption and retention in humans...

Influence of piperine on the pharmacokinetics of curcumin in

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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  CausticSymmetry on Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:39 am

lund - Here's the deal with BCM-95 as far as how long it stays in the blood compared to regular curcumin with and without bioperine.

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2007/oct2007_report_curcumin_01.htm
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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  CausticSymmetry on Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:47 am

Here is the latest study I could find on the absorption of Curcumin.

Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2008 Jun;17(6):1411-7.
Pharmacokinetics of curcumin conjugate metabolites in healthy human subjects.
Vareed SK, Kakarala M, Ruffin MT, Crowell JA, Normolle DP, Djuric Z, Brenner DE.

Department of Internal Medicine, University of Michigan Medical School and Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA.

BACKGROUND: Curcumin is a polyphenol, found in the spice turmeric, that has promising anticancer properties, but previous studies suggest that absorption of curcumin may be limited. METHODS: This study examined the pharmacokinetics of a curcumin preparation in healthy human volunteers 0.25 to 72 h after a single oral dose. Curcumin was administered at doses of 10 g (n = 6) and 12 g (n = 6). Subjects were randomly allocated to dose level for a total of six subjects at each dose level. Serum samples were assayed for free curcumin, for its glucuronide, and for its sulfate conjugate. The data were fit to a one-compartment absorption and elimination model. RESULTS: Using a high-performance liquid chromatography assay with a limit of detection of 50 ng/mL, only one subject had detectable free curcumin at any of the 14 time points assayed, but curcumin glucuronides and sulfates were detected in all subjects. Based on the pharmacokinetic model, the area under the curve for the 10 and 12 g doses was estimated (mean +/- SE) to be 35.33 +/- 3.78 and 26.57 +/- 2.97 mug/mL x h, respectively, whereas C(max) was 2.30 +/- 0.26 and 1.73 +/- 0.19 mug/mL. The T(max) and t(1/2) were estimated to be 3.29 +/- 0.43 and 6.77 +/- 0.83 h. The ratio of glucuronide to sulfate was 1.92:1. The curcumin conjugates were present as either glucuronide or sulfate, not mixed conjugates. CONCLUSION: Curcumin is absorbed after oral dosing in humans and can be detected as glucuronide and sulfate conjugates in plasma.
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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  CausticSymmetry on Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:05 am

Found a nice PDF here on BCM-95 Curcumin

http://www.bcm95.com/pdf/Cross-Over-Study.pdf
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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  Joejoebaggins on Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:46 am

CausticSymmetry wrote:Found a nice PDF here on BCM-95 Curcumin

http://www.bcm95.com/pdf/Cross-Over-Study.pdf

Looks like some good stuff.

Perhaps that blogger was using too much? He said something like a couple capsules a day.
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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  Gibson on Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:04 pm

CS--
Does it in fact contain biopeperine and, if so, is there a product sans the pepper?

Or am i being overly cautious about this ingredient?

I'll probably place an iherb order tomorrow, so if you can get back to me soon that would be great.

Thanks.

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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  CausticSymmetry on Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:29 pm

Gibson - I use the BCM-95 version that does not contain any bioperine. Life Extension has two versions and the one that does have bioperine is not BCM-95. I didn't want the one with bioperine either since it partially stalls glucuronidation, which is responsible for detoxifying and removing anticarcinogenic products.
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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  Joejoebaggins on Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:02 pm

Speaking of glucuronidation, what are your thoughts on Calcium D-Glucarate IH?
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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  CausticSymmetry on Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:33 pm

Joejoebaggins - If there is any problem with estrogen clearance or symptoms of estrogen dominance, then Calcium D-Glucarate is a good idea.

Or if it is known that beta-glucuronidase levels are too high, which would reduce conjugation, etc.

I think I read somewhere that Calcium D-Glucarate can reduce estrogen by over 20%
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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  Gibson on Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:53 pm

Thanks for the quick reply.

What's strange is that based on a random comment on the iherb site, I thought it contained biopeperine--I might have seen the mention in the LEF lit as well, which got it stuck in my head.

Oddly, I was somewhat haunted/disturbed by this, as I could not rationalize ordering the product, particularly since if I liked it, I wondered what the long term effect might have been due to the biopeperine.

In any case, I'm looking forward to taking a break from handling that insanely stain-prone, yellow powder. Will order BCM-95 tomorrow.

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Re: Curcumin : The Natural / CS

Post  CausticSymmetry on Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:03 pm

Gibson - I just read all the reviews for the BCM-95 Curcumin and yeah, one of the reviewers erroneously remarked
about it containing bioperine, guess he rated the wrong product.
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