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an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

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an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  AL123 on Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:52 pm

for a topical oil and it's essential fatty acid composition, does the same rules apply which are for dietary intake?
upon googling, the popular ratio is: monounsaturated 75%, polyunsaturated 17%, saturated fats 8%
does that make coconut oil forbidden? if not, why? *for topical use*

i want to infuse herbs into an oil, but can't come up with an ideal EFA composition.
- i've had great success with olive oil + rapeseed oil (50/50 ratio). olive oil is high in oleic acid, no linolenic acid (omega-3). rapeseed has 30% linoleic acid, 54% oleic acid, only 7% linolenic acid (omega-3). i'm looking for a combination which can ensure maximum skin penetration and presence of omega-3 as they promote the good prostaglandins.
- tried sesame oil, 45% linoleic, 42% oleic. results were amazing in the beginning. maximum skin penetration. darker, thicker hair. after 45 days, experienced inflammation like never before. turns out prolonged use of linoleic acid (omega-6) without the competing omega-3 causes major conversion into arachidonic acid, which is a precursor of prostaglandin d2.
- coconut oil has no serious amounts of linoleic acid and oleic acid. only saturated fats, the dominant of which is lauric acid at 56%.

- can i mix olive oil, rapeseed oil and coconut oil in equal proportions? will lauric acid ensure better penetration and won't harm in it's role of being a saturated fat?
- we all use topical oils and rarely see long term success. from my experience, it has everything to do with the EFA ratio. the same herbs which were magical in olive+rapeseed proved to be useless in sesame oil after 45 days.



Last edited by AL123 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:15 am; edited 3 times in total

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  AL123 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:01 am

Journal of Ethnopharmacology
Volume 139, Issue 3, 15 February 2012, Pages 765 - 771

5?-reductase inhibition and hair growth promotion of some Thai plants traditionally used for hair treatment

Results

Carthamus tinctorius L. was the most potent 5?-reductase inhibitor, with a finasteride equivalent 5?-reductase inhibitory activity (FEA) value of 24.30 1.64 mg finasteride equivalent per 1 g crude extract.
safflower ethanolic extract inhibiting 5-ar better than finasteride. isn't this research of enough value for all of us to include safflower extract in our regimen?
will safflower 'oil' work in the same way?
should one infuse safflower seeds into a carrier oil and expect such efficacy? if yes, what amounts?

from another forum:

GLA (gamma linoleic acid) is a POWERFUL 5a-reductase inhibitor. As a general rule, the more highly unsaturated the fatty acid is, the more effective it is at inhibiting 5a-reductase. Here are the most common fatty acids from foods, and how well they do at that issue:

stearic acid (saturated): no effect as a 5a-reductase inhibitor
oleic acid (one double bond): only a mildly effective inhibitor
linoleic acid (two double bonds): moderately effective as an inhibitor
alpha linolenic acid (three double bonds): pretty effective as an inhibitor
gamma linolenic acid (three double bonds): VERY effective as an inhibitor!!

but they say these fatty acids need to be in their 'free' form. what does it mean? how do we achieve that? at home, that is.
ALA is enough in flax seeds. will it work? if yes, what amounts?

finding correct answers to all above can translate to androgens harming us no more.

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  CausticSymmetry on Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:26 am

I Posted this information when it came out. It would take me a lot of time to explain all of this. In short, do not use canola or rapeseed oil under any circumstances. How the oil is prepared (lack of processing is critical). Also, in short saturated fat is okay. As far as PUFA's, they are safe provided they are unprocessed, and not heated. As for the safflower oil (you can do a search for this on this forum), topically it's a real mess--trust me on this. This is a type of oil that is very difficult to wash off. So if you intended to use it, take internally only.

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  AL123 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:56 am

CausticSymmetry wrote:I Posted this information when it came out. It would take me a lot of time to explain all of this. In short, do not use canola or rapeseed oil under any circumstances. How the oil is prepared (lack of processing is critical). Also, in short saturated fat is okay. As far as PUFA's, they are safe provided they are unprocessed, and not heated. As for the safflower oil (you can do a search for this on this forum), topically it's a real mess--trust me on this. This is a type of oil that is very difficult to wash off. So if you intended to use it, take internally only.

can you explain in one line how rapeseed oil isn't a good idea?
saturated fat/coconut oil is okay, even if it contains 80% saturated fat?
among the 3 carrier oils mentioned, only rapeseed oil has PUFA. and can't it be heated at 100F only? as without this mild heat, infusion of herbs won't be possible.

if safflower oil can be messy, how about infusing safflower seeds in another carrier oil? and do you think the posted study means it'd perform better than finasteride?

if i combine 2 or all 3 of the carrier oils (olive oil, coconut oil, rapeseed oil), how do i select keeping in mind their EFA ratios? is it vital to maintain balance between all polyunsaturated, monounsturated and saturated fats? *for topical use* what is the benchmark here?

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  CausticSymmetry on Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:11 am

The intake of Palm Oil and other tropical oils rich in Saturated fatty acids haved demonstrated to have the lowest androgen levels as well as the lowest 17beta-HSD activity when compared with the intake of a rapeseed oil based one, whichl had the highest androgen level and the highest 17beta-HSD activity.

Rapeseed oil (Canola Oil) isn't suitable for human consumption. It's just as absurd as consuming cottonseed oil, both of which contain genotoxic properties.

Here's one massive thread that will explain some of the details about oils.

http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t4431-new-paradigm-shift-peo-s-not-efa-s



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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:37 am

I use mostly emu oil as a carrier oil...also not recommended?

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  AL123 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:42 am

CausticSymmetry wrote:The intake of Palm Oil and other tropical oils rich in Saturated fatty acids haved demonstrated to have the lowest androgen levels as well as the lowest 17beta-HSD activity when compared with the intake of a rapeseed oil based one, whichl had the highest androgen level and the highest 17beta-HSD activity.

Rapeseed oil (Canola Oil) isn't suitable for human consumption. It's just as absurd as consuming cottonseed oil, both of which contain genotoxic properties.

Here's one massive thread that will explain some of the details about oils.

http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t4431-new-paradigm-shift-peo-s-not-efa-s



the low level of androgen was demonstrated as a result of oral intake, will it also hold true when applied topically on the scalp? besides, that's the only site where androgens need to be controlled.

i was judging rapeseed oil by its EFA content, it contains 7% linolenic acid (omega-3), 30% lenoleic acid (omega-6) and 54% oleic acid. it sounded better. but i'll avoid it next time.

thanks for the link. so it highlights the importance of ALA and LA. please approve my following mixture:

- mixing 250g olive oil + 250g coconut oil + 250g rapeseed oil (unfortunately, i had already added it before you could respond), they contain 8%, 3% and 30% LA respectively, amounting to 102g of LA. while there is high oleic acid and saturated fats (which you confirmed won't hurt my scalp).
- added 250g flax seeds, which contains a total of 54g ALA, maintaining a ratio of 2:1 of LA:ALA, which is exactly what your link recommends. and then i added some other herbs.
- is it ideal then? i have the mixture on stove, maintaining a temperature of 100F, which is considered safe. will let them infuse for 4-6 hours.

CS, KINDLY approve the above procedure according to the best of your knowledge.


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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  AL123 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:45 am

Steve_Gr wrote:I use mostly emu oil as a carrier oil...also not recommended?
emu oil is fine. what do you infuse it with?
it's EFA composition: 15% LA, 48% oleic, 35% saturated.
and they claim it's one of the best penetration enhancers.
i just mixed olive oil, coconut oil and rapeseed oil in equal proportions to infuse some herbs. if i take averages of their EFA content in the mixture, the ratio of EFA is almost similar to that of emu oil.

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  CausticSymmetry on Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:47 am

Would never use any canola/rapeseed oil under any circumstances, topically or internally.

For one thing, canola oil already contains trans isomers. Further, any type of PUFA oil is not advised if it is processed. Would not risk it.

Also, there is no really need for a monosaturated fat on the scalp, it's a carrier at best. The reason Emu helps with penetration has nothing to do with the fatty acids it contains.


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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  AL123 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:54 am

CausticSymmetry wrote:Would never use any canola/rapeseed oil under any circumstances, topically or internally.

For one thing, canola oil already contains trans isomers. Further, any type of PUFA oil is not advised if it is processed. Would not risk it.

Also, there is no really need for a monosaturated fat on the scalp, it's a carrier at best. The reason Emu helps with penetration has nothing to do with the fatty acids it contains.

oh. well, olive oil + coconut oil will serve best to carry the infused ingredients through the skin layers? but this combination won't have any considerable amount of LA. what do i do then?

yeah, high monounsaturated fat in olive oil will serve as a penetration enhancer, while i read lauric acid does the same.
can you approve the infusion procedure? stable heat at 50C for 4-6 hours on the stove. will it infuse the herbs completely without hurting the oils?

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  CausticSymmetry on Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:59 am

The problem is 50 C is simply too hot. While it pays to experiment, try everything just mixed, cold pressed, unprocessed oil only. Perhaps Emu with Lauric and/or coconut oil with safflower oil.

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:00 am

AL123 wrote:
Steve_Gr wrote:I use mostly emu oil as a carrier oil...also not recommended?
emu oil is fine. what do you infuse it with?

I have 3-4 different bottle droppers and mix it with thyme, clove, castor oil or coconut.

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  AL123 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:08 am

CausticSymmetry wrote:The problem is 50 C is simply too hot. While it pays to experiment, try everything just mixed, cold pressed, unprocessed oil only. Perhaps Emu with Lauric and/or coconut oil with safflower oil.

without heating the mixture for several hours, i'm unable to infuse those herbs.
i'll dial it down to 40C. i hope 4-6 hours will be sufficient.

sesame oil is unprocessed right? it has 45% LA, and while you stressed on LA's importance in your other thread, i'll try mixing olive+coconut+sesame next time. and infuse flax seeds for ALA, and then other herbs. is this mixture approved by you?

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:16 am

CausticSymmetry wrote:The problem is 50 C is simply too hot. While it pays to experiment, try everything just mixed, cold pressed, unprocessed oil only. Perhaps Emu with Lauric and/or coconut oil with safflower oil.

this is the emu oil that i use

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Emu-Oil-4-oz-100-Pure-Oil-Fully-Refined-Cosmetic-Grade-/180921250251?pt=US_Skin_Care&hash=item2a1fbf31cb

is it ok?

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  ppm on Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:46 am

I would opt for hemp oil it contains n3 and n6 in the right ratio, and also GLA.

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  AS54 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:50 am

If you are worried about infusing the oil why not create an emulsion. Extract your herbs in alcohol.
Then combine them with the oils, if the fat is high in proportion to the alcohol, a simple blend could mix sufficiently for topical application. If the mixture seems to separate quickly, why not blend with a bit of phosphatidylcholine or lecithin in small amounts just to facilitate uniformity. Phosphatidylcholine would also serve as a penetration enhancer. And there is always the option of adding a bit of DMSO.
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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  AL123 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:18 am

anthonyspencer54 wrote:If you are worried about infusing the oil why not create an emulsion. Extract your herbs in alcohol.
Then combine them with the oils, if the fat is high in proportion to the alcohol, a simple blend could mix sufficiently for topical application. If the mixture seems to separate quickly, why not blend with a bit of phosphatidylcholine or lecithin in small amounts just to facilitate uniformity. Phosphatidylcholine would also serve as a penetration enhancer. And there is always the option of adding a bit of DMSO.
anthony, i want to keep it 100% natural. i know for a fact that these fatty acids can ensure maximum skin penetration, and they're capable of extracting the ingredients out of the herbs. i just want my basic concerns addressed.
e.g olive oil, coconut oil and rapeseed oil. we have their EFA composition given. what is the ideal ratio of EFA a carrier oil should have? for ALA, i've got flax seeds. if i remove rapeseed oil, i lose major amount of LA. however, oleic acid and lauric acid would remain in high amounts, but that would do only good, right?
then, i maintained a temperature of 40C for 4 hours, and 30 minutes at 60C at the end. the infusion is over. now, how do i know if it's all good, as in the herbs have completely infused and oils aren't hurt one bit?

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  AS54 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:50 am

The color of the oil will be a good hint. Typically an unprocessed vegetable oil will have a brighter tinge than a cooked one. For example, olive oil is usually a fairly rich green or yellow-ish green tint. After cooking it, the oxidized olive oil will look dingier, it gets browner. This is a sign the oil is no longer good. Think of oil you see after deep frying something. Its completely oxidized. There is nothing unnatural about the recipe I talked about. Those are all natural ingredients. I'd give it a try.

The herbs themselves could change the color of the oil, of course, so if you want to find out if the temp you are cooking at is destroying the oil, just cook some plain oil at that temp and see how the color changes. That'll tell you if the oil is holding up, but to be honest, I'd guess it is oxidizing. Polyunsaturated oils and even monounsaturated oils, like olive, don't hold up well to heat, especially prolonged heat. Granted, 40 degrees celsius is pretty low, but I'd hesitate to consume oil left at 104 F for 4 hours. Coconut oil probably holds up and its perfectly okay to infuse coconut oil. Better yet, make an herbal infused ghee, which is just clarified butter. Its easy to do.
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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  moby on Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:36 am

ok so which one should be the best to take orally to reduce 5AR and conversion to PGD2? I don't believe anything like that can be even close to being as efficient as finasteride

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  LawOfThelema on Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:07 am

CS is this essentially why you recommend against rapeseed and the other vegetable oils?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1282206

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  TrueGround on Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:24 pm

The heat, while low, may be damaging (oxidizing) the oils significantly if exposed to that heat and open air for too long.

To numerically gauge the amount of oxidation done to your oils, buy an ORP (oxidation reduction potential) meter. These are not all created the same, but I know that a decent one costs around $100. The more positive the read on the meter, the more oxidized and rancid the oils are. For instance, a friend of mine measured a special type of water I drink with his ORP meter and it read -320ish. This technically means the water itself is an antioxidant. We then measured my tap water, which was a positive 100+ reading, meaning it is oxidizing. This is due to chemical treatment and other pollution in the municipal water supply.

I can find out what kind of meter my friend used, but he said he did a lot of research before he purchased. It was a key lime green color, if that helps.

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  AL123 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:36 pm

TrueGround wrote:The heat, while low, may be damaging (oxidizing) the oils significantly if exposed to that heat and open air for too long.

To numerically gauge the amount of oxidation done to your oils, buy an ORP (oxidation reduction potential) meter. These are not all created the same, but I know that a decent one costs around $100. The more positive the read on the meter, the more oxidized and rancid the oils are. For instance, a friend of mine measured a special type of water I drink with his ORP meter and it read -320ish. This technically means the water itself is an antioxidant. We then measured my tap water, which was a positive 100+ reading, meaning it is oxidizing. This is due to chemical treatment and other pollution in the municipal water supply.

I can find out what kind of meter my friend used, but he said he did a lot of research before he purchased. It was a key lime green color, if that helps.

i have tried solar infusions and they never went bad. jar completely filled to the top. 3/4 herbs and oil just an inch above the herbs. kept it in direct sunlight for up to 4 weeks. it worked because there was no space for air and the lid was tightly closed.
meanwhile, my last infusion on the stove went bad in less than an hour. is it because the pan wasn't covered and there was enough air inside the pan? as i was unable to fill it up.
it's just that i need an expert opinion as to how i can be sure that herbs have completely infused, the duration, the ideal temperature etc. and i can't seem to find any answer.
then, what ratio of EFA to maintain. the study says safflower oil inhibited 5-ar. how about infusing safflower seeds into the mixture? if yes, what amount? will it work as good as the ethanolic extract used in the study? safflower has parental omega-6 LA. and also quercetin.

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  AL123 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:33 pm

last night infusion: went bad :/
it has a faint musty smell, can't find a proper word though. but it doesn't smell 'fresh', neither it has the aroma of the herbs.
people use these oils for cooking, and it didn't even last me for 4-5 hours at 50C? what went wrong? the fact that the pan had air inside it and wasn't air tight? is that why heat spoiled it?
what method experts use? there has to be an answer. solar infusion? 4 weeks?

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  AL123 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:23 pm

why didn't it last 4-5 hours at 50C-60C, when many use it for cooking purposes at 180C and even re-use it 4-5 times? what could have went wrong?

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Re: an ideal EFA composition of a topical oil/ safflower more effective than finasteride

Post  TrueGround on Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:49 am

Yes, the exposure of the oils to oxygen will contribute to further damage. Sunlight will as well. The way I see it, with your experiment here, is that there are too many unknowns. It's hard to say at what temperature and to what length of exposure to oxygen that each individual herb's active compounds will start to destruct, let alone the oils themselves.

If you want to do this right, you really need to contact a chemist. Ideally, it would be somebody from a company that manufactures essential oils. You could contact a company like this or something similar and pretend you are interested in 'manufacturing' your own topical oil concoction and want to use them as a supplier for a raw material. If you do this and get one of their chemists on the phone, they'd likely be happy to walk you through your questions.

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